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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

I wish I felt informed on what Metrolinx was thinking! Yes, if you want to run along the tracks, then daylighting around Gerrard makes sense - presumably some curve onto the rail alignment and a portal .... will be tricky with stations on both lines. I wouldn't worry about preserving either shopping centre. It's not like they'll be sticking around for too long if there's a huge transit interchange nearby - massive development opportunity.

But if the line was going into Union, that would all be great. But we keep being told it's still going down Queen and hitting East Harbour. Which seems hard to fathom without building a new railway embankment through Corktown common! I don't know how you leave the alignment east of that, as you'd have a huge curve where you need a platform for the proposed Broadview/Eastern/East Harbour station.

I'm really baffled here ... we are probably best to wait for more information (but we won't)!)
 
I wish I felt informed on what Metrolinx was thinking!
lol...please form a reserved only triple line to listen for more thoughts from the Oracle of Town Hall Meetings and sundry events.

Must run, I'll offer more reference and detail later. Bear in mind that with RER EMUs, for both the LSE and tributaries, and the ostensible Ontario Line being RER in tunnel, *Both* Union and Osgoode (and later beyond, including Exhibition as one branch) can be destinations for RER trains. This has massive value in terms of flexibility, 'direct to downtown', alternative terminals in case of blockage, and a host of other options, not least intuitively assigning destinations on a deduced load basis.
 
... the ostensible Ontario Line being RER in tunnel, *Both* Union and Osgoode (and later beyond, including Exhibition as one branch) can be destinations for RER trains.
There's been a whole lot of conflicting information, but I don't recall seeing anything (this year at least) from Metrolinx about the Ontario Line being anything close to RER. And although that might be worth considering (if it meant frequent service like the underground portion of the Elizabeth Line, rather than the infrequent RER that the you GO is usually talking about and see much of the day in Paris) ... haven't Metrolinx been using the word "light"? I'd hardly call RER "light"!
 
I'm really baffled here ... we are probably best to wait for more information (but we won't)!)

Tweet them and ask why the secrecy and sorcery. They've been working on this behind closed doors since October supposedly, surely they should have a couple of bits of info on it to release.
 
Tweet them and ask why the secrecy and sorcery. They've been working on this behind closed doors since October supposedly, surely they should have a couple of bits of info on it to release.
I've been tweeting them for years, trying to figure out what is going on with the construction and new tunnel entrance at Exhibition station, and they spent years denying there was any construction going on, despite me tweeting them pictures of signs saying that construction was going on!

If they can't acknowledge the undeniable, I have no hope that their PR machine would have any clear information on something so nebulous!
 
haven't Metrolinx been using the word "light"? I'd hardly call RER "light"!
They have, but they really don't know. Best guess is that someone will or has made a proposal to them. They've also been talking "London" a lot, but few seem to realize that London wouldn't build the DLR the way they did thirty years ago. Thameslink and Crossrail is their choice. Mainline in tunnel through the core running ATO. THAT is the future according to London, Paris, Berlin, etc. Metros are great for lower demand situations. Not to relieve creaking arteries like the Yonge Line.
Tweet them and ask why the secrecy and sorcery. They've been working on this behind closed doors since October supposedly, surely they should have a couple of bits of info on it to release.
It really lends itself to wild speculation, doesn't it? Including if they're fishing for something that isn't real to begin with. That being said, I think that there's at least one offer on the table, but that in itself creates problems, as this is 'just not the way this is done'. It will look like an inside job, which is what it would be, so Metrolinx if fumbling to make it look otherwise, something *they* are proposing, not the other way round.

This is where REM might have some answers, although I've tried to dig on that before and really couldn't figure out the 'dating game' being played there. Remember, Montreal is SNC-Lavalin central, and their mating games are done behind closed doors. Meantime it's absolutely clear to at least some of us that Verster's stories don't add-up, not just from day-to-day, but within that day!
I've been tweeting them for years, trying to figure out what is going on with the construction and new tunnel entrance at Exhibition station, and they spent years denying there was any construction going on, despite me tweeting them pictures of signs saying that construction was going on!

If they can't acknowledge the undeniable, I have no hope that their PR machine would have any clear information on something so nebulous!
Yeah....some believe Metrolinx are forthcoming and accountable. I and a growing number think otherwise.

I'm still watching https://www.metrolinxengage.com/en/content/ask-metrolinx-may-2-2019 for answers to the many questions ignored but one at the last Town Hall meeting.
 
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Why has Metrolinx bothered to increase the service frequency on LSE/LSW to every 15 minutes off-peak on weekdays, and not on peak or on weekends? Its such a maddeningly stupid thing that it would actually be less frustrating if they simply didn't bother with the weekday off-peak improvements.
 
They have, but they really don't know. Best guess is that someone will or has made a proposal to them. They've also been talking "London" a lot, but few seem to realize that London wouldn't build the DLR the way they did thirty years ago.
Gosh .. Docklands Light Rail? It's a huge bottleneck in London now - at least for the services into Bank and Tower of London. They've spent a fortune upgrading part of it from 56-metre to 84-metre trainsets. And the vehicles are very narrow - much narrower than even the Canada Line trains.The DLR vehicles are about the same width as an LRT car.

I didn't think the DLR signalling system could even handle very frequent trains - looks like they best they currently do is every 120 seconds, similar to our subway.

Did they really suggest DLR? I thought they said something modern ... I'd think that would be a step back from even the automated LRT they are talking about in the central section of Line 5. I certainly don't see any benefits, other than not using low-floor cars, and a marginal increase in capacity from that.

I'm completely baffled how they can have stepped backwards so far, want do use a PPP approach, and think they can knock 2 more years off the opening date. Surely they need to add 2 years for the redesign, 2 years for the PPP, and we are looking at 2031 at the earliest ... which means deferring the tunnelling contract award (the only thing that seems to lock things in these days) until after the next election.
 
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Why has Metrolinx bothered to increase the service frequency on LSE/LSW to every 15 minutes off-peak on weekdays, and not on peak or on weekends? Its such a maddeningly stupid thing that it would actually be less frustrating if they simply didn't bother with the weekday off-peak improvements.
Because on weekday peak they don't have enough slots at Union, and on weekends not enough demand? Would be my guess.

re @nfitz point on the narrow vehicles, I remember being quite taken aback by how narrow SRT cars are (having just stepped off a T1) and wonder what even a 2.65m car will feel like underground for passengers used to over 3m of width.

re depth changes near Pape; this is one area where a different vehicle presumably adds a bit more flex to the design (since the RL design would have to accommodate a depth suitable for a quick rise to Line 2 level and the entrance to the wye track). A non-TTC-subway mode for Ontario Line could perhaps pass at a lower depth (which admittedly would impact station construction cost) in order to put a larger buffer between the bottom of the Line 2 bore and the top of the OL bore - the lowest depth would also be mitigated somewhat if the OL trains were using a smaller bore.
 
Gosh .. Docklands Light Rail? It's a huge bottleneck in London now - at least for the services into Bank and Tower of London. They've spent a fortune upgrading part of it from 56-metre to 84-metre trainsets. And the vehicles are very narrow - much narrower than even the Canada Line trains, about the same as an LRT

You are getting your systems mixed up. The Canada Line uses standard 3rd rail subways cars which are 3 meters wide. It is the Expo/Mill lines that use the thinner ART SkyTrain cars.

Interestingly, the Expo/Mill have more than twice the potential capacity of the CL due to much larger potential station sizes. This exemplifies how people who think the Ontario Line won't have the needed capacity don't know what they are talking about. Capacity is not, in ANY WAY, based on technology used but rather on station sizes and frequency levels. Of course such facts are ignored by Ford's critics of the OL who are basing much of their arguments on political gain and not on public transport facts.
 
You are getting your systems mixed up. The Canada Line uses standard 3rd rail subways cars which are 3 meters wide. It is the Expo/Mill lines that use the thinner ART SkyTrain cars.
I meant that they are narrower than even the 3-m wide Canada line cars. I'll move my punctuation.

Yeah, they those 40-metre long Canada line trains are shockingly small. I was riding it a couple of weeks ago, and I commented to someone that the entire train was not much longer than a Toronto streetcar - you'd think I'd sacrificed a wild animal from the glares I got. Standing in the underground stations, it looks like it wouldn't be that easy extend to 60-metre platforms - unlike the Sheppard subway, it doesn't look like they simply built some easy-to-remove walls to block off the extra platform.

What also surprised me is how packed the thing is northbound from the Fraser River at 10 AM on a weekday. They certainly don't believe in an off-peak one person per seat loading standard there! It will be interesting to see what happens when the extend the Millennium line to Arbutus, and more people start boarding the Canada line there!
 
Capacity is not, in ANY WAY, based on technology used but rather on station sizes and frequency levels.
Sorry, but that statement is purely false. Every technology has limitations with regards to the size of station, the frequency the service can obtain, and the size of vehicles. Sure, you can link up a bunch of light rail vehicles, but at what point does it become cost prohibitive, or increase the cost of construction? I can theoretically make a 6 LRV long train that has a similar capacity to a Toronto Rocket, but I'm going to provide more wear on the pantographs, require platforms that are 42 meters longer than a subway platform, spend more on rolling stock and maintenance.

But what about running said service with smaller trains but with much higher frequencies? Well that creates its own set of challenges in it of itself. Sure, automation can reduce bunching, but at the same time, it severely decreases speed. Think of fluid dynamics and Bernoulli's law, if water is under pressure, the velocity is a lot lower, however, if it's pressure is a lot lower, the velocity is a lot higher (for ideal systems). The same principle can be extended to trains: If you have more trains running on a line (an increase in pressure since the space between trains is a lot less), then the ideal speeds the trains can run at will reduce, and if you decrease the number of trains on the line, the space between trains increases, meaning speeds can increase. If you sacrifice speed for frequency, there comes a point where your service isn't rapid any more, and doesn't provide enough of a justification for people to use it.

The technology used has everything to do with these complications. With heavy rail, specifically the subway technology we use in the system to this day, we have wider trains that have the potential to run at frequencies of every 90 seconds. You can only make your platforms so long, so if you decrease the width of the trains, you're taking away potential capacity. If you're trying to cut costs, increasing the diameter of the tunnel will be significantly less expensive than building a station with a longer platform, so cutting the length of trains can still provide decent capacity while cutting costs. Of course, this is a dumb move to make on the Ontario line due to capacity constraints.

There's also another problem with the frequency argument, it doesn't account for huge surges in demand. This is going to be a huge problem at all the transfer stations, especially Pape. You can see how these demand surges affect train capacity on the Yonge & Sheppard Lines at Sheppard Yonge station. If you have a subway bringing in a huge number of passengers at Pape, and it dumps say, 800 passengers off there to take the Ontario line, some passengers may have to wait for up to 3 trains (probably more since there will be traffic from Science Centre) in order to make the transfer. It also doesn't help keeping the line on time because assuming the line is running at a maximum train capacity, the trains behind it will have to wait for all passengers to board the trains currently at Pape. This is enough to sway people away from using the Ontario line as a potential service.

Sure, if you were to build the Ontario line as the preexisting relief line with the technology provided, sure, you might be able to get away with it, but once you start adding passengers from Sheppard and beyond, the line will be a sitting duck, a huge mistake for the city that should have built a subway line instead. This line is supposed to compete with the Yonge subway, which sees 30+ PPHPD north of Bloor, and assuming ridership continues to grow throughout the city, the Ontario line will not be able to keep up with the passenger growth north of Bloor, and will eventually become just as crowded as the Yonge line is today.
 
Of course such facts are ignored by Ford's critics of the OL who are basing much of their arguments on political gain and not on public transport facts.
To trust an administration, as you appear to do, which trots out Jeff Yurek to assert the non-existence of the Spadina Subway Extension seems... unwise. This is a government that has hammered several vulnerable sections of society and other orders/agencies of government but you trust them because you think they will build a shiny train set?
 
I didn't think the DLR signalling system could even handle very frequent trains - looks like they best they currently do is every 120 seconds, similar to our subway.

They use Thales' SelTrac product for the signalling system - the same used on the SRT and Vancouver's SkyTrain lines. The minimum theoretical headway is about 45 seconds, although that requires the trackwork to support it. I suspect that the minimum possible on the individual lines towards their ends is about 2 minutes (and some some change, depending on geometry), but on the overlapping segments in the middle of the system it should be far lower.

Dan
 
To trust an administration, as you appear to do, which trots out Jeff Yurek to assert the non-existence of the Spadina Subway Extension seems... unwise. This is a government that has hammered several vulnerable sections of society and other orders/agencies of government but you trust them because you think they will build a shiny train set?
I don't even see how fans of shiny trains are cheering this on. New GO stations deferred indefinitely. Smartrack deferred indefinitely. Lakeshore East extension to Bowmanville deferred. Line 2 extension extended well beyond the planned 2026 opening. Eglinton East LRT cancelled. Finch West extensions unfunded.

They use Thales' SelTrac product for the signalling system - the same used on the SRT and Vancouver's SkyTrain lines. The minimum theoretical headway is about 45 seconds, although that requires the trackwork to support it. I suspect that the minimum possible on the individual lines towards their ends is about 2 minutes (and some some change, depending on geometry), but on the overlapping segments in the middle of the system it should be far lower.
Ah interesting. Currently the overlapping segments are every 2 minutes at best (at least the ones I looked at) and it is lower towards the ends.

I wonder what the constraint is then operationally, if they can't do better than 120 seconds in the shared areas? Is that just the reality of what happens when you start branching frequent services?
 

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