GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[crs1026]

I guess that makes the most sense since there isn't a lot of time before January 7th. Will they have to do a brake test when the operating crew switches ends of the train?

I don't know the written answer, but I would hope not, in the sense that control of the train could remain at the leading end, with a crew member protecting the backup move in/out of the depot. So long as the brake control configuration is not altered, there is no logical reason to brake test, unless GO has a rule that we don't know about.

- Paul

 

[innsertnamehere]

I imagine that they will only back for a few months, and move to get that missing track done pretty soon.

Confederation GO is supposed to open by the end of 2019 - I imagine trackwork will finish a little earlier, fixing that gap in a few months. Surely no more than a year of operating that way.

 

[Leo_Chan]

At least transit nerds and rail fans can experience and record the special operation.

 

[TransitBart]

At least transit nerds and rail fans can experience and record the special operation.

This is a commuter line, no? Unless this is also just an experiment in operation to test interest and operations? If you have deep pockets, you can do this live testing and really see what works. Probably better than announcing a full schedule to find that it does not work/coordinate properly.

 

[crs1026]

The part that I find interesting is that there have been a few positive announcements since the government changed. Some of those - 15 minutes service on LSE, and now this - have appeared hasty and not fully prepared.

The new regime may not have a solid overall position around transit, but it hasn't taken them long to latch onto transit improvements as a source of photo ops. (About things that were started in the Wynne years, too.... better to mine them for glory than cancel them) Let's hope ML is able to convince them to do the hard lifting that's a prerequisite for proper service on these routes.

- Paul

 

[TOareaFan]

The part that I find interesting is that there have been a few positive announcements since the government changed. Some of those - 15 minutes service on LSE, and now this - have appeared hasty and not fully prepared.

I get the impression they are using a “don’t let perfection get in the way of pretty good” approach.

So you get a convo like this:

Govt.....why can’t we run one train a day to Niagara

ML....we can but until we do that last bit of track work we have to back the trains in and it adds time.

Govt....do it and when the tracks go in service will improve.

It may signal a switch from grand transit projects that take years to plan and develop to smaller, incremental improvement that makes small but immediate impact on some lives.

I don’t know, I am just guessing.

 

[crs1026]

It may signal a switch from grand transit projects that take years to plan and develop to smaller, incremental improvement that makes small but immediate impact on some lives.

It's such an odd mix of "get this done right away, we can announce some small improvement if we just do it half-assed" and at the same time "put everything on hold because we have this new procurement model and it has to be all encompassing".

We're all just guessing ;-)

- Paul

 

[WislaHD]

The trouble with the downtown Grimsby Station is that it is tiny. The platform is barely three cars' length. When the VIA/Amtrak train comes through, if anyone is getting on or off, they do so from a single door. It's certainly possible to extend the platform, and parking can be squeezed in around it (on the north side of the tracks, there's a minor hydro corridor), but that's not really GO Transit's thing. They like big stations with lots of parking. (It's amazing that they allowed a minimal, downtown-ish station at Acton).

But I believe that Metrolinx owns the Casablanca site, and it fits in to their suburban station strategy. Casablanca is not a horrible place for a station (there are worse stations in GO's network, including its two newest on the Richmond Hill line), but if it's going to be out there, it needs local transit access to it.

I'm also skeptical of the ridership of GO Trains out towards Niagara Falls. It's still faster to drive from Grimsby to Burlington and take the GO from there. Commuters would be better off with a one-shot bus to Burlington from the park and ride already there. The slow orders through Hamilton slow things down, as does the many stops as far as Oakville or Clarkson. It'd have to run on a different stopping pattern from GO local and express trains. Regional rail makes more sense. There might be some commuter traffic headed to Hamilton, but it's not a big office node, and West Harbour isn't well connected to HSR buses to McMaster (the A-line does at least link it to Mohawk).

I think there's a lot of potential for a great Niagara GO extension. Especially if it is used in conjunction with gradually speeding up the whole corridor for a much more viable Toronto-NYC service over the long term. The use of faster 125mph Amtrak/VIA trainsets can feasibly go that speed once Lakeshore West is fully grade separated (to Burlington) and the track class is then incrementally upgraded over the next 10-20 years. This will also invariably help express services.

The infrastructure is currently underutilized and should be utilized a huge deal more. Possibly the recent new all-day 2-way West Harbour GO expansion proposal that was was recently released, will provide a ridership-growth opportunity and for the HSR 10-year Rapid Ready plan to grow fruits including better connections to West Harbour.

There appears to be a lot of opportunity to grow ridership over time but there is indeed lots of disagreement on the proper gradual path forward -- given the current reputation of West Harbour as a ghost station not even included in the Niagara summer seasonal (yet).

I feel like a sizable chunk of commuters are either heading to St Catherines, or Hamilton, Burlington, or Oakville, similar to Kitchener Line Commuters originating at Kitchener GO. Speaking of which...

I am however, looking forward to catching the Lakeshore West Friday evening peak train from West Harbour Hamilton, to visit Niagara Falls for the weekend a couples times a year. The Niagara-Hamilton train trip is now finally possible on GO.

Also, at the very least, Hamilton work can now be a commuter target for St Catharines / Niagara Falls. That's a more manageable commute than Niagara-Union.

I even suggested the idea of backing up the train into West Harbour to Metrolinx.

The issue here appears that we are trying to bring everyone to Union Station.

If I may take a step-back for a second, the answer seems to be fairly straightforward. Hamilton needs to grow into a regional commuter destination and a major city in its own right.

 

[Streety McCarface]

The issue here appears that we are trying to bring everyone to Union Station.

If I may take a step-back for a second, the answer seems to be fairly straightforward. Hamilton needs to grow into a regional commuter destination and a major city in its own right.

Can we please make it Burlington? Hamilton feels like Ontario's Cleveland.

Plus it makes more sense since RER will terminate at Aldershot.

 

[Northern Light]

Can we please make it Burlington? Hamilton feels like Ontario's Cleveland.

Plus it makes more sense since RER will terminate at Aldershot.

Aldershot is full of character? Its a parking lot, a highway and some woods.

Also have you walked around DT Hamilton lately? Its actually coming along. Still rough around the edges with too many parking lots, but there is street life and some streets have quite nice streetscaping, and a minor foodie scene.

More progress to be made, to be sure. But coming along, as is the west (roughly, DT, waterfront).

The industrial area you see from the QEW certainly is not what one would hope for on a postcard, though with Randall's Reef rehabbed, it does have some potential, if they tear down their hideous mini-expressway, and work on both the street-side landscapes as well as waterside, where infrastructural use permits.

Hamilton is the regional destination, not Aldershot.

It simply needs to build to fill that role over time.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Aldershot is full of character? Its a parking lot, a highway and some woods.

Also have you walked around DT Hamilton lately? Its actually coming along. Still rough around the edges with too many parking lots, but there is street life and some streets have quite nice streetscaping, and a minor foodie scene.

More progress to be made, to be sure. But coming along, as is the west (roughly, DT, waterfront).

The industrial area you see from the QEW certainly is not what one would hope for on a postcard, though with Randall's Reef rehabbed, it does have some potential, if they tear down their hideous mini-expressway, and work on both the street-side landscapes as well as waterside, where infrastructural use permits.

Hamilton is the regional destination, not Aldershot.

It simply needs to build to fill that role over time.

Aldershot works for a transit hub because there is so much room for improvement because of the parking lots, and it is Burlington that is full of character, not Aldershot. That comment was directed at Hamilton becoming a major town in its own right.

I was in downtown Hamilton the other day. It's getting better, but still not where it should be given the huge growth all over southern Ontario. I really hope Hamilton has a renaissance, the city has so much potential, but unfortunately it's stuck with its current industry (there's nothing wrong with it, it's strategic and important to the economy, but having the defining characteristic of your city be the steel smelters is quite depressing to say the least). While I made horrible life choices and don't really think walking down there at night is a huge issue, I know plenty of people who are scared to death of walking anywhere in Hamilton any time after dusk.

Hamilton really isn't a regional destination, not yet anyways. The only reason I'd go to Hamilton is to see my friends at McMaster, and even then, they'd prefer to either come to Waterloo or travel to Toronto than have me go there. Despite Hamilton being a large city, it only sees like 4 GO trains a day, no regular bus service to Guelph/Aberfoyle, UofW, Kitchener, Niagara Falls, or even Cambridge. Now, I have plenty of reasons to drive (since transit really isn't an option) to Aldershot: GO trains to Toronto, VIA/Amtrak intercity, GO buses to Niagara, Brantford, etc. The only thing Hamilton really has going for it is Hamilton GO centre, and even then, only the 407 buses are the only unique bus routes that serve the station. Until the track ownership situation at West Harbor is fixed or Hamilton GO sees more trains, Aldershot still remain like the best choice for a giant transit hub, especially for rail.

 

[lenaitch]

I was in downtown Hamilton the other day. It's getting better, but still not where it should be given the huge growth all over southern Ontario. I really hope Hamilton has a renaissance, the city has so much potential, but unfortunately it's stuck with its current industry (there's nothing wrong with it, it's strategic and important to the economy, but having the defining characteristic of your city be the steel smelters is quite depressing to say the least). While I made horrible life choices and don't really think walking down there at night is a huge issue, I know plenty of people who are scared to death of walking anywhere in Hamilton any time after dusk.

If we, as a society, has reached the point that a value-added, strategic and economically vital industry is considered something less than a community's potential or is depressing simply by virtue of the fact that it not ascetically pleasing, any hope of manufacturing in Canada is doomed. We will be sentencing ourselves to buy virtually everything we consume from someplace else. Perhaps the soon-to-be-unemployed people of Oshawa will be happier when they get something prettier to replace the GM plant.

 

[WislaHD]

Can we please make it Burlington? Hamilton feels like Ontario's Cleveland.

Plus it makes more sense since RER will terminate at Aldershot.

Hamilton feels like Ontario's Cleveland.

Hamilton needs to become Ontario's Pittsburgh.

I was in downtown Hamilton the other day. It's getting better, but still not where it should be given the huge growth all over southern Ontario. I really hope Hamilton has a renaissance, the city has so much potential,

It really does have so much potential.

You only need to look at its street-grid to see that. It's street-grid is thoroughly urban, as Hamilton's downtown core is as old as Toronto's. Most of Hamilton's downtown just also happens to be parking lots. But so was a lot of downtown Toronto not too long ago. That street-grid also means that Hamilton would have no problems supporting a strong surface transit network, should density and ridership build over time.

Despite Hamilton being a large city, it only sees like 4 GO trains a day, no regular bus service to Guelph/Aberfoyle, UofW, Kitchener, Niagara Falls, or even Cambridge.
Until the track ownership situation at West Harbor is fixed or Hamilton GO sees more trains, Aldershot still remain like the best choice for a giant transit hub, especially for rail.

Definitely challenges.

Since this thread is about GO service, I think that Hamilton should one day have stations at West Harbour, Gage Ave, Parkdale Ave, Centennial Pkwy, and Stoney Creek, in addition to Hamilton GO.

Go for full coverage in Hamilton and up-zone the surrounding area around the stations for high-density. The planning tools are already in place thanks to Places to Grow and Mobility Hubs.

 

[mdrejhon]

From a "convince-the-public" route might actually be the correct way to go (regardless of party!!)

Scenario A
1. Keep Hamilton people whining about West Harbour GO ghost station
2. Keep Niagara people whining about long wait for Niagara service
3. Unable to claim victory until all construction is done
4. Trip still too slow? --> Public says "all this expensive wait for only this?" --> Harder to claim political victory

Scenario B
1. Start 1 daily train 4 years early
2. Claim political victory
3. Public complains about West Harbour GO "backing in" --> Province comes to rescue and announces spur contract --> Public cheerleads construction --> Claim political victory
4. Public complains about Long Niagara GO time --> Fixing above will also reduce trip time significantly --> Claim political victory
5. Trip still too slow? --> Public in better mood to let government fund incremental speedups --> Claim political victory

Scenario A of waiting till all prerequisites are built before beginning service may be more logical, while Scenario B is another (imperfect) way to get things done with more public cheerleading and symbollic political victories.

The end result is the same, but the path is different.

 

[crs1026]

Scenario A of waiting till all prerequisites are built before beginning service may be more logical, while Scenario B is another (imperfect) way to get things done with more public cheerleading and symbollic political victories.

The end result is the same, but the path is different.

I’m actually more of a fan of the Plan A approach, because it gives decisionmakers and the public the most realistic preview of what it will take to implement service on a route. And ensures that the most expensive, most constraining parts get tackled first.

The risk of the incremental approach is that the public, and the Cabinet, gets sick of funding requests - “What, you again?” - and it gives transit opponents the opportunity to allege boondoggle “we keep pouring money into this line, and look at all we got for it”. There has to be an overall plan and one of those little thermometer graphics to show that this is only 5% project completion.

A good example is the 401-409 tunnel, which was always in the GTS plan but which got deferred when that project went over budget. Another example is the Scarboro Jct flyover, which is a choke point for Stouffville and Bowmanville services. All the doubletracking on the Uinionville means little until that is done. Lastly, look at Davenport, which is the critical path item for 2WAD to Aurora. In all those cases, the government needs to be constantly reminded that the smaller additions do not advance the declared vision for the line.... and in fact the money invested in little things (which make great photo ops) is wasted until the big things get done.

I’m all in favour of making small improvements as quickly as they can be added, and it’s good if the pols get to mine those as photo ops ( I suspect that what is actually happening right now is in fact photo op mining....led by Verster, to demonstrate to Ford that the PCs stand to gain more by supporting transit than by cutting it........ and in turn by the PC’s as they realise this is in fact true).

Low hanging fruit is good. But there is so much risk that Ford will add the one Niagara train, declare victory loudly, and never spend another cent on getting Go to Grimsby and beyond. Don’t count on this recent addition as creating much momentum towards that.

- Paul