GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[robmausser]

View attachment 101785

Pardon me if I drag this out by coming at it another way - with a case study. Here's a Google Earth view of the catchment area for the Clarkson GO station. I picked Clarkson because I don't have views on the current situation - but it has a nice big parking garage.

I hand-drew (pardon the shaky mouse) the Miway routes that connect to Clarkson GO. You will note that for the most part, the residential areas (green) don't get local services, so one has to walk to the main streets to find a bus.

There are two routes (29- blue, and 14 - red) that arguably already function as local feeder routes....but.....the rush hour headway for these is 25 minutes on one and 35 minutes on the other.

To me, this says - it's a long walk to the bus, but a nice short drive to the GO. No surprise that people avail themselves of that option. The solution has to be to bring transit closer to the doorstep.

- Paul

I thought on first glance this was a fantasy subway map, and you were slowly slipping into some dementia type state.

 

[TOareaFan]

Agreed. I wonder if the different number come from Brampton Transit or the City of Brampton. Could you also show me where it says 10% percent on wiki, I cannot find it for some reason.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrolinx_mobility_hubs

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrolinx_mobility_hubs

Thank You! Will look further into this.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Could All Day Two Way GO Be Delayed until 2041?
via Insauga

"So while this particular tunnel project is mainly for the Kitchener GO line, it provides a template for future logistics of how putting down the infrastructure for RER in general will go. This bodes well for the future Milton GO line to get all day two way GO train and electrification.

But speaking of the Milton GO line, there have been recent developments that may worry supporters of RER. During a meeting with Metrolinx officials and the Halton Region Planning and Public Works Committee on February 8, Halton regional councillors were allegedly told that all day, two way GO train service will not come to Milton until 2041."

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Could All Day Two Way GO Be Delayed until 2041?
via Insauga

"So while this particular tunnel project is mainly for the Kitchener GO line, it provides a template for future logistics of how putting down the infrastructure for RER in general will go. This bodes well for the future Milton GO line to get all day two way GO train and electrification.

But speaking of the Milton GO line, there have been recent developments that may worry supporters of RER. During a meeting with Metrolinx officials and the Halton Region Planning and Public Works Committee on February 8, Halton regional councillors were allegedly told that all day, two way GO train service will not come to Milton until 2041."

I hope this is a lie, otherwise the election is already almost over before it began.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Could All Day Two Way GO Be Delayed until 2041?
via Insauga

"So while this particular tunnel project is mainly for the Kitchener GO line, it provides a template for future logistics of how putting down the infrastructure for RER in general will go. This bodes well for the future Milton GO line to get all day two way GO train and electrification.

But speaking of the Milton GO line, there have been recent developments that may worry supporters of RER. During a meeting with Metrolinx officials and the Halton Region Planning and Public Works Committee on February 8, Halton regional councillors were allegedly told that all day, two way GO train service will not come to Milton until 2041."

From the same article:

While local councillors in Halton were up in arms, the local MPP in the area, Indira Naidoo-Harris, disputed that claim, saying in a statement that "Metrolinx is not aware of any sources that would lead to the information that's posted in the (article from local Milton publication). We are still working towards better service on the Milton GO line."

[Insauga] did however receive a statement from a representative from Metrolinx on this story. They are not aware of any source that would lead to the information being reported regarding RER delayed until 2041 here and in other local news articles.

I would highly doubt specific years are being thrown around officially at this point, especially with the Missing Link still in play. 2041 is a long ways away, I highly doubt anyone would wait 25 years to get CP sorted out; either they get on board with the Missing Link, or Metrolinx gets directed to move ahead with expanding the Milton Line with CP occupancy.

2041 actually meshes with the review of the Big Move, and the end-year of the 25-year plan. It is true that 2WAD for the Milton Line got bumped to that timeframe, and someone may have just done the math based on that and went into hysterics. But politically, within the 25-year plan, it will get first priority within that timeframe (i.e. sooner than 25 years from now).

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

From the same article:



I would highly doubt specific years are being thrown around officially at this point, especially with the Missing Link still in play. 2041 is a long ways away, I highly doubt anyone would wait 25 years to get CP sorted out; either they get on board with the Missing Link, or Metrolinx gets directed to move ahead with expanding the Milton Line with CP occupancy.

2041 actually meshes with the review of the Big Move, and the end-year of the 25-year plan. It is true that 2WAD for the Milton Line got bumped to that timeframe, and someone may have just done the math based on that and went into hysterics. But politically, within the 25-year plan, it will get first priority within that timeframe (i.e. sooner than 25 years from now).

There was no timetable on that came out in 2014. But this is disappointing to me. Milton is the second busiest line. I mean they are throwing away money here.

 

[Dan416]

Milton line always gets forgotten

 

[mpd618]

Total hearsay, but what I heard was that GO was out looking at the Galt - Guelph railway (CN Fergus subdivision, I think). Whether or not that's true, it'd certainly be an interesting way to get around CP.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Total hearsay, but what I heard was that GO was out looking at the Galt - Guelph railway (CN Fergus subdivision, I think). Whether or not that's true, it'd certainly be an interesting way to get around CP.

Do you mean the line from Cambridge to Guelph, and then continuing along the Kitchener corridor via the Guelph sub? (I can't figure out what the Fergus sub is)

Interesting way to serve Cambridge, but I fail to see how it would fly. It would only be a temporary solution, it would be few riders and a lot of investment for a temporary solution, and it doesn't solve the biggest issue: increasing service through Mississauga.

 

[steveintoronto]

Total hearsay, but what I heard was that GO was out looking at the Galt - Guelph railway (CN Fergus subdivision, I think). Whether or not that's true, it'd certainly be an interesting way to get around CP.

The line from Guelph down to Cambridge is in terrible shape. If GO had any interest in it, they should have intervened to block the tearing up of the second track that ran from Guelph station to the cut-off at Alma Street.

Is that old main still of value? Absolutely, but not immediately, and when so, most likely as an LRT route with completely new track and railbed, not heavy rail, although it still hosts a once or twice a week freight collection by GEXR and worked as a siding, not a spur. That can still happen temporally over LRT lines, as done in some US cities. (San Diego has been doing this for decades) As it is, it takes just under two hours by GO train from Guelph to Union. Add another half an hour at least for that old Great Western relic, and then count your chickens.

 

[steveintoronto]

especially with the Missing Link still in play.

I made this a separate post from my last, as this remains the *"ring that binds them all"*.

Until this is fully sussed and we get something close to a definitive *fiscal* answer in the next year, all other bets are off. This one project radically alters all the other proposed 'improvements'....it will, in fact, render almost all of them redundant and an almost complete waste of money. It will also allow the start of streamlined planning on 'passenger only (except at night) rail lines.

The Link is The Thing! The estimated $5B cost of doing this is paid back many times over in savings from not having to do all the other workarounds, and ancillary costs of new buildings, signalling, etc. (Obviously signalling and control will have to be improved on many lines, but not to the degree that sharing with freight entails, as freight will be done temporally on the lines freed by the link by-pass)

 

[crs1026]

I don't know why anyone would say that the Milton line is "neglected". Ten trainsets, a ten-spot layover yard, and a fair investment to upgrade the CP line beyond what existed in 1980 is a lot of TLC.

If one took all the money being spent towards Stouffville and Barrie, and applied it to Milton instead, we would still be short of 2WAD.... and imagine the howls about "favouritism" to Mississauga if all the money were spent in that one zone.

Milton is a hugely successful peak line, but that doesn't prove it is a good 2WAD candidate (although it probably isn't too shabby in that respect, either).

Lastly, CP's operational needs are not to be overlooked. They are trying to run a heavy freight corridor there, comparable to CN between Georgetown and Bramalea. GO has gotten at least the same level of cooperation as CN has allowed in that zone. CP has gone on record that it is willing to cooperate with whatever improvements ML can afford to pay for, including extension to Cambridge.

Halton/Peel have done very well by GO overall. The bypass will make many further things possible. Again, that's a huge chunk of change being spent there. Makes whatever "injustice" a Gardiner toll would create pretty small in comparison, perhaps Ms Crombie should count her blessings.

- Paul

 

[crs1026]

PS: The big mistake with Milton (totally as a matter of hindsight) was putting the GO operation on the north side. That was a no-brainer in 1980, because no one foresaw CP's Obico Yard shutting down. Much of the track rearrangement that was done to implement the initial GO service was about routing GO trains around Obico and creating a better shunting situation for CP's intermodal operation there. GO had to go on the north side to protect the Obico operation. Alas, now that Obico is gone, the configuration puts GO trains crossing over in the path of CP freights which must use the south main line.

I wonder what might be possible if GO could afford to put platforms on the south side at each station. 2WAD to Milton really isn't necessary - the biggest market is probably syphoning off drivers coming east on the 401 headed into the city. Lisgar and Meadowvale are better options for this than Milton, as it's a shorter leg off the highway than coming down into central Milton. Bramalea works as a connection for traffic coming off the 407 from the west, but Lisgar or Meadowvale would likely shave miles and minutes off that option. That would put GO on the south and freight on the north, which is the more natural freight routing.

- Paul

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Total hearsay, but what I heard was that GO was out looking at the Galt - Guelph railway (CN Fergus subdivision, I think). Whether or not that's true, it'd certainly be an interesting way to get around CP.

The line from Guelph down to Cambridge is in terrible shape. If GO had any interest in it, they should have intervened to block the tearing up of the second track that ran from Guelph station to the cut-off at Alma Street.

Is that old main still of value? Absolutely, but not immediately, and when so, most likely as an LRT route with completely new track and railbed, not heavy rail, although it still hosts a once or twice a week freight collection by GEXR and worked as a siding, not a spur. That can still happen temporally over LRT lines, as done in some US cities. (San Diego has been doing this for decades) As it is, it takes just under two hours by GO train from Guelph to Union. Add another half an hour at least for that old Great Western relic, and then count your chickens.

I made this a separate post from my last, as this remains the *"ring that binds them all"*.

Until this is fully sussed and we get something close to a definitive *fiscal* answer in the next year, all other bets are off. This one project radically alters all the other proposed 'improvements'....it will, in fact, render almost all of them redundant and an almost complete waste of money. It will also allow the start of streamlined planning on 'passenger only (except at night) rail lines.

The Link is The Thing! The estimated $5B cost of doing this is paid back many times over in savings from not having to do all the other workarounds, and ancillary costs of new buildings, signalling, etc. (Obviously signalling and control will have to be improved on many lines, but not to the degree that sharing with freight entails, as freight will be done temporally on the lines freed by the link by-pass)

I thought about it, I mean the using the Galt Guelph railway would service Kitchener and Cambridge at the same time, knocking off two bird with one stone. But how long would that trip be? 2:25? Way too long for "commuter rail" They need to bite the bullet and upgrade the Galt sub.

I don't know why anyone would say that the Milton line is "neglected". Ten trainsets, a ten-spot layover yard, and a fair investment to upgrade the CP line beyond what existed in 1980 is a lot of TLC.

If one took all the money being spent towards Stouffville and Barrie, and applied it to Milton instead, we would still be short of 2WAD.... and imagine the howls about "favouritism" to Mississauga if all the money were spent in that one zone.

Milton is a hugely successful peak line, but that doesn't prove it is a good 2WAD candidate (although it probably isn't too shabby in that respect, either).

Lastly, CP's operational needs are not to be overlooked. They are trying to run a heavy freight corridor there, comparable to CN between Georgetown and Bramalea. GO has gotten at least the same level of cooperation as CN has allowed in that zone. CP has gone on record that it is willing to cooperate with whatever improvements ML can afford to pay for, including extension to Cambridge.

Halton/Peel have done very well by GO overall. The bypass will make many further things possible. Again, that's a huge chunk of change being spent there. Makes whatever "injustice" a Gardiner toll would create pretty small in comparison, perhaps Ms Crombie should count her blessings.

- Paul

PS: The big mistake with Milton (totally as a matter of hindsight) was putting the GO operation on the north side. That was a no-brainer in 1980, because no one foresaw CP's Obico Yard shutting down. Much of the track rearrangement that was done to implement the initial GO service was about routing GO trains around Obico and creating a better shunting situation for CP's intermodal operation there. GO had to go on the north side to protect the Obico operation. Alas, now that Obico is gone, the configuration puts GO trains crossing over in the path of CP freights which must use the south main line.

I wonder what might be possible if GO could afford to put platforms on the south side at each station. 2WAD to Milton really isn't necessary - the biggest market is probably syphoning off drivers coming east on the 401 headed into the city. Lisgar and Meadowvale are better options for this than Milton, as it's a shorter leg off the highway than coming down into central Milton. Bramalea works as a connection for traffic coming off the 407 from the west, but Lisgar or Meadowvale would likely shave miles and minutes off that option. That would put GO on the south and freight on the north, which is the more natural freight routing.

- Paul

Paul, I partially disagree. CP, yes has been very cooperative up to date. But I think Milton should receive all day service. It's closer to the yard and I feel Milton would be a station with great ridership.