GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[rbt]

That's a huge chunk of change. How many people are going to use this potential extension? It seems like a waste of money to me.

Recall the provinces promise to spend around $14B outside the GTHA on transit initiatives. Compared to most of the stuff for that bucket of funds, this actually seems like a reasonable use of funds. Doubly good if passengers disembark in Hamilton rather than going into the GTA.

Of course, nearly the entire bucket of funds would be better spent (higher ROI) within the GTA but that was not going to happen politically.

 

[flyinggoats]

35 million dollars for a basic Stoney Creek station, probably a basic version of this:
http://gotransitnlb.gotransit.com/public/en/improve/Final_Confederation_Station .pdf

Diagram of Stoney Creek GO Station, named "Confederation GO Station".
View attachment 41468

(I also have photos of the rail overpass reconstruction as well)

I think most of the 150 million is the extra trackage that goes adjacent to the existing CN track, going from JamesNorth, and beyond to Lewis? I wonder if part of the 150 million includes the rail underpass near Hamilton Junction, to more easily permit 30 minute service (probably does not include cost of overpass near Bayview Junction, but am curious)?

I don't understand why Metrolinx is still designing stations with a "Park n Ride" design. They pay a lot of lip service about wanting to turn GO stations into mobility hubs (http://www.metrolinx.com/en/projectsandprograms/mobilityhubs/mobility_hubs.aspx) with mixed land uses, but when the build a new station, they go back to the traditional design. Would it not make sense to build all new stations as mobility hubs?

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

Indeed - I was going to say that Metrolinx has a strange idea as to what constitutes a "basic station", with almost 700 parking spaces.

 

[mdrejhon]

That's a huge chunk of change. How many people are going to use this potential extension? It seems like a waste of money to me.

Not necessarily a waste.

Did you know Metrolinx is parking the JamesNorth GO trains in Stoney Creek, at Metrolinx's own new Lewis trainyard?

And taxiing the trains EMPTY to JamesNorth?

And that over $100M is necessary (dedicated track, etc) before JamesNorth has 30-min allday service like Aldershot? At this point, might as well spend the $35M for a basic station at Stoney Creek. The $150M has many hidden benefits for JamesNorth, including the move of the allday service terminus from Aldershot to Stoney Creek. Thus, anyone who wants the JamesNorth station, should be voting for the Stoney Creek station, since the funds are needed for the extra infrastructure between Lewis trainyard and JamesNorth (passing through the Stoney Creek station area).

 

[salsa]

I don't understand why Metrolinx is still designing stations with a "Park n Ride" design. They pay a lot of lip service about wanting to turn GO stations into mobility hubs (http://www.metrolinx.com/en/projectsandprograms/mobilityhubs/mobility_hubs.aspx) with mixed land uses, but when the build a new station, they go back to the traditional design. Would it not make sense to build all new stations as mobility hubs?

According to your link, "A mobility hub is more than just a transit station. They serve a critical function in the regional transportation system as the origin, destination, or transfer point for a significant portion of trips. They are places of connectivity where different modes of transportation – from walking to biking to riding transit – come together seamlessly and where there is an intensive concentration of working, living, shopping and/or playing".

Stoney Creek was not identified as a mobility hub or urban growth centre in the big move, nor is it a major transfer point between other transit lines. This is not Dundas West.

 

[wopchop]

$150m is chump change, in the grand scheme of the $14billion we will be spending on transit. We are about to spend nearly as much on cancellation fees, so really, what's $150m on actual infrastructure?

 

[ShonTron]

The $150 million probably includes track improvements between James North and Confederation, CN and the VIA/Amtrak train crawl along the Grimsby corridor through central Hamilton; I believe this is partly because of all the closely spaced level crossings and poor sightlines.

I don't have a problem with building Confederation with a large parking lot, especially as GO will have two urban stations without much parking in Downtown Hamilton. It's conveniently close to the QEW, after all. I do complain about how much GO fares go to maintaining parking lots, whether you park there or not, but in suburban semi-industrial areas such as Confederation and QEW, it's not inappropriate. Focus on developing stations like Port Credit, Brampton, the new Oshawa station (if the Bowmanville extension goes ahead) into transit friendly mobility hubs.

 

[innsertnamehere]

$150m is chump change, in the grand scheme of the $14billion we will be spending on transit. We are about to spend nearly as much on cancellation fees, so really, what's $150m on actual infrastructure?

its 1% of that budget. Do we really want to be blowing that kind of cash on an underused station on the edge of the GO service area? That $150m could fund the provincial portion of the Waterfront East LRT.

 

[TOareaFan]

Recall the provinces promise to spend around $14B outside the GTHA on transit initiatives. Compared to most of the stuff for that bucket of funds, this actually seems like a reasonable use of funds.

isn't Stoney Creek inside the GTHA? i thought it was in the H part.

 

[mdrejhon]

its 1% of that budget. Do we really want to be blowing that kind of cash on an underused station on the edge of the GO service area? That $150m could fund the provincial portion of the Waterfront East LRT.

More than $100 million of that directly benefits JamesNorth service, a mobility hub.

Don't forget that Metrolinx is parking the JamesNorth GOtrains overnight at Lewis. They couldn't find anywhere to park the trains closer (that CN would let them), so they bought land at Lewis (in Stoney Creek) and are building sidings there to park trains. So the trains taxi 18 kilometers empty, just to start service at JamesNorth.

And it's not even all-day service at JamesNorth (not without the rail infrastructure improvements all the way to Stoney Creek needed). They really do need to spend more than 100 more million dollars in order to bring all-day service to JamesNorth, and that's where part of the 150 million is -- a dedicated Metrolinx track all the way to Lewis -- only 35 million is really directly going to a basic Confederation station, the rest is in infrastructure between JamesNorth and Lewis located in Stoney Creek. JamesNorth is a mobility hub, and to make it a real one, there needs to be allday service, and to make allday frequent service feasible, they need to spend on infrastructure to allow them to kick off a surge of morning peak trains, by parking up to 4 trains at Lewis -- taxiing them 18 kilometers empty to JamesNorth. At this stage, it's only 35 million for the Confederation station, not 150 million. The Confederation station will quickly become so popular, that they will probably eventually need to build a parking garage there -- from the new users driving to it from Hamilton Mountain too. Most will just go past on the Skyway, but a few thousand would divert to the GOtrain if there was a station there. The parking lot GO station is not ideal, but the infrastructural improvements is necessary for frequent (30min allday) JamesNorth service.

Also, let's be fair. Aldershot is not a mobility hub, yet it is more popular among Hamiltonians than the downtown Hamilton station to start their morning commute (myself included). I drive to Aldershot just so I don't have to worry about missing the last Hamilton GOtrain.

 

[reaperexpress]

Indeed - I was going to say that Metrolinx has a strange idea as to what constitutes a "basic station", with almost 700 parking spaces.

For now they are only moving forward on the north half of the station (shown in black on that out-of-date preliminary design), so more like 400 spaces, but your point is still valid.

That's a huge chunk of change. How many people are going to use this potential extension? It seems like a waste of money to me.

As mdrejhon pointed out, most of the $150 million is not for the station itself but for other improvements which are needed regardless of serving Stoney Creek, given that we're storing trains past Stoney Creek anyway. But I also wonder how much of this $35 million is for the train station portion as compared to the parking lot and bus terminal.

Metrolinx was moving forward on preliminary buildout of Confederation as a park-and-ride bus terminal even before they had to suddenly build Lewis Yard. So is the $35 million in addition to the money they had already allocated, or is it the new total including the already-committed parking lot and bus terminal plus the newly added train platforms?

I don't have a problem with building Confederation with a large parking lot, especially as GO will have two urban stations without much parking in Downtown Hamilton. It's conveniently close to the QEW, after all. I do complain about how much GO fares go to maintaining parking lots, whether you park there or not, but in suburban semi-industrial areas such as Confederation and QEW, it's not inappropriate. Focus on developing stations like Port Credit, Brampton, the new Oshawa station (if the Bowmanville extension goes ahead) into transit friendly mobility hubs.

Well put, I totally agree. Let desolate stations like Bramalea, Aldershot, Malton, etc. attract P&R demand away from mobility hubs, where it will be more expensive to provide. I'd also add on the suggestion that we charge for parking at mobility hubs but not at desolate park and rides in order to encourage people to park where it is inherently cheaper.

 

[nfitz]

I drive to Aldershot just so I don't have to worry about missing the last Hamilton GOtrain.

When I've travelled to downtown Hamilton from Toronto on business, I've found the Aldershot-Hamilton GO Centre bus works very well. I wouldn't have thought missing the final train was a huge concern with that shuttle bus. Does it not work as well in the evening?

 

[reaperexpress]

When I've travelled to downtown Hamilton from Toronto on business, I've found the Aldershot-Hamilton GO Centre bus works very well. I wouldn't have thought missing the final train was a huge concern with that shuttle bus. Does it not work as well in the evening?

I'm guessing the fact that there is free parking at Aldershot but only pay parking at Hamilton may have something to do with their decision too.

 

[mdrejhon]

I do that sometimes, yes.

But for my work-late habits, it slows me down so much. By parking my car at Aldershot, I can have a complete end-to-end cubicle-to-swimming-pool time of 1h25min (Record: slightly less than 1h20min, with the 6:30pm express) when the freeways are flowing well to Main-King and then I go through all the synchronized traffic lights without a red light, as I live only a block off the Main-King artery. That's not possible if I have to catch a bus from Aldershot; it often end up bcoming 2 hours or more total commute time. I like having a predictable commute-home time, and the 6:30pm express is my favourite, since the freeways are usually flowing faster or fully by then, allowing the shortest commute home. I try to stick to the 930-to-530, but since I leave work after 6:30pm two times a week (and sometimes every time during deadlines, well past 8pm), it works in my favour to drive directly to Aldershot since my average home-to-Aldershot is a 13 minutes from train disembarkation to parking in my driveway. I sometimes save an hour not taking the Aldershot bus, especially if I missed the GO bus because I disembarked the train at the opposite end, waiting for the next GO bus, and having it take almost half an hour to get downtown Hamilton. Also, it's not as desirable in the wintertime -- I usually board near the Bay teamways, which when disembarking, puts me far from the Aldershot tunnel to the terminal building/GO bus, where the eastmost coach directly leads me out to the Aldershot south parking lot, very close to my car (50 meter walk in many cases), and no reserved parking needed as often required in downtown Hamilton. And I've bumped into a lot of Hamiltonians in the Aldershot parking lot, that I get a distinct sense that more Hamiltonians board GOtrains at Aldershot than downtown Hamilton...

Not to mention, I usually have my alarm set to 7:15am and I board the 8:08am Aldershot.
7:15am is the departure of the last GOtrain from Hamilton -- I'm still asleep!
The 8:08am is sometimes extremely popular, I've occasionally seen it mmediately get a quarter-full sometimes on departure from Aldershot. (Another justification for JamesNorth+StoneyCreek). My alarm is set to the same time as the last Hamilton GOtrain, so the morning departure times are mostly useless to me, unless I have to go earlier into the office. Allday service can't come soon enough to Hamilton.

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

In spite of mdrejhon's usual TL;DR comment D) what he says does make sense. It sounds like a similar situation to UPX, where people talked about it costing $500 million even though most of that money was spent to facilitate more frequent service for existing GO services.

Does this all mean that Stoney Creek is going to be the limit of the Lakeshore West line for the foreseeable future? It would be nice if St. Catharines and Niagara Falls had regular service so that workers could get to offices in Hamilton, Burlington and Oakville located near the QEW, but I imagine that in reality few people would use such a service.