GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[smallspy]

Wasn't the station to be open by now?

I can't find any info online confirming this, but when my parents moved to Richmond Hill 22 years ago they said there were talks about putting a station in Gormley as well.

When the project and funding was first announced, the yard and the station were scheduled to be open in December 2012.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[muller877]

GoGo Inflight Internet uses upwards-facing antennas that works mostly above 10,000 feet -- so there's no GoGo Inflight reception on GOTrains.

I'd bet it would be cheaper for Metrolinx to negotiate bandwidth with Rogers/Bell/etc, than for GO to install GoGo Inflight. Also GoGo Inflight has less bandwidth than LTE does, and serves only up to a few hundred people on an airline that's widely spaced apart. GoGo Inflight is also very widely spaced apart, with lots of gaps in between. The reception looks like a "cone" pointing upwards, and overlaps only at 10,000 feet. Zero reception would reach the land. And consider the size of GoTrains relative to airlines. 4000 people on frequent peak GOTrains that are closer spaced together than airplanes, while a GoGo Inflight land antenna might be spaced further apart than the distance between Hamilton and Toronto!. And see tens of thousands are being transported simultaneously during peak. Even Rogers/Bell will be less likely to overload than even if GoGo Inflight has their antennas redirected downwards (theoretically), since GoGo Inflight antenna separation is extremely wide. And with Bell/Rogers today, likely tens of thousands are successfully using mobile data simultaneously during peak commuter traffic. Bandwidth per square metre of ground, is several orders of magnitude higher than GoGo Inflight;

So you see, the law of physics of it all, quite eliminate GoGo Inflight from being a contender for providing Internet to GoTrains.

And it's not good economically either. You would need to invent a new mobile company to replace GoGo Inflight or Rogers or Bell, just to provide Internet service to corridors. And bid on some spectrum at one of those auctions, maybe 600MHz coming up (Sorry, 700Mhz is sold out, already sold to carriers). Can you say, multibillion dollar initiative? You need lots of antennas along the corridor, something Rogers/Bell often has at least in the central parts, and an agreement between Metrolinx and Bell/Rogers could be made to deply more cells for expanded LTE coverage along the corridor -- while expensive and unfavourable idea for some -- this would be far, far cheaper than reinventing a land-based higher-capacity version of GoGo Inflight Internet which would also probably require rental of the same towers that Bell/Rogers uses, and dedicated spectrum (which can be $$$). Forget it, you don't want Metrolinx to set up something tantamount to a new cell company, just to service Internet to GOTrains. Just pay Rogers/Bell for LTE data, and if there's not enough bandwidth, pay Rogers/Bell to set up more antennas along the GOTrain corridor. Even if it costs a hundred million dollars, it would still be cheaper than inventing a new cellphone-equivalent company (GoGo Inflight is sort of one; it's simply mobile spectrum and antennas pointing upwards). The bandwidth of LTE is good enough to serve the GOTrains if optimized specifically: In some sections of Lakeshore GO line you can already download half a gigabyte video file in just ten minutes (>1MBytes/sec) -- actual test that I did myself -- that is far, far faster than satellite -- while in other sections it slows down to a crawl (or briefly loses reception). While on GOTrain, I also routinely install near-100MB iOS apps on my iPad in only 1min-1.5min, confirming the same superfast >1MBytes/sec speed as I whoosh past stations near Oakville. So you see, there's already bandwidth capability in the technology, Rogers/Bell/etc simply needs to point some more antennas along the corridor so that the bandwidth is equally good along the whole corridor. Also, antennas on the top of the train will bring better reception than small cellphone antennas inside the "leaky-Faraday cages" that metal bilevels trains are (people sitting in aisle bulkhead seats on the lower level get the short stick in reception, whle people sitting in window seats on the upper levels, get much better LTE reception -- at least on some sections of Lakeshore with speeds competitive or faster than land-based cable/DSL. Rogers/Bell/etc. can level the playing field with good LTE reception along the whole GO corridors, maybe with a little 'incentive' from Metrolinx, if more bandwidth was necessary for Metrolinx purposes (online realtime fare payment) along the corridors n the future. Also, most American WiFi trains use land-based cellular, sometimes with satellite as backup. VIA Rail does the same too. The GoGo Inflight network of sparsely-separated upwards-cones-of-reception is optimized for airplanes, not for trains, so such a GoGo Inflight style system is never used by any rail system, it would be cost-prohibitive to get the same great LTE bandwidth I get on about 50% of the Lakeshore sections. I admit that LTE does get crappy passing Mimico and Port Credit, and sometimes at Union when the network is overloaded, but my Rogers LTE on iPad feels faster than my 25Mbps Teksavvy home Internet connection during the Lakeshore sections just before and after Oakville. So it would be far more economically feasible to expand LTE along the corridor to match that great LTE reception in the best parts of the corridor. It may still be too expensive for Metrolinx, but far cheaper than a GoGo Inflight style system.

And so you see, the economics, also quite eliminate a GoGo Inflight (or clones that Metrolinx sets up), too.

Bottom line, therefore, GoGo Inflight is DOA for Metrolinx.

Didn't know that about GoGo. Interesting. But it shows you that signals can reach a movable target.

And I was thinking of the 3.5 gHz spectrum. The LTE network simply does not have sufficient capacity for any serious download (that's why its priced so high). The LTE spectrum can never be used as a replacement for wired solutions primarily due to the limited amount of bandwidth (over time when more people use LTE the speed will degrade due to this constraint).

3.5 has been shown to download up to 770 Mbps...in a real-life test in Japan. This spectrum is currently being re-looked at by Industry Canada...but the primary use of it is internet and not cellular phone.

 

[Electrify]

So what is the reason for the delay of not even starting construction two years AFTER it was supposed to open?

 

[smallspy]

So what is the reason for the delay of not even starting construction two years AFTER it was supposed to open?

I don't know, and I've never been able to get one. Much of the trackwork on the Bala Sub has been complete for that amount of time.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

Wasn't the station to be open by now?

I can't find any info online confirming this, but when my parents moved to Richmond Hill 22 years ago they said there were talks about putting a station in Gormley as well.

So what is the reason for the delay of not even starting construction two years AFTER it was supposed to open?

Evidently you aren't aware of Metrolinx/GO's unofficial but well established motto; "Better late then never"
Same will apply for electrification & RER I fear.

 

[nfitz]

Evidently you aren't aware of Metrolinx/GO's unofficial but well established motto; "Better late then never"
Same will apply for electrification & RER I fear.

Still, better late than never ...

At least they don't operate the train service that way ... compared to TTC, GO runs like clockwork.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

I can see GO trains every morning on the Kitchener line from my apartment. Today, for the first time, I saw one with an MP40 and a coach right behind it, both in then new livery.

Still wish they were going to be refreshed at a faster rate, but I guess it's being efficient.

 

[ProjectEnd]

Wonderful. A woefully dull little shed surrounded by surface parking. Grand.

 

[Jonny5]

Wonderful. A woefully dull little shed surrounded by surface parking. Grand.

Exactly what it should be. The only thing people should want to do here for the next 50 years is to leave as fast as possible. Now is the time to build the transit, not blow some little boy design fetishits wads on fantasy designs no one who actually goes there gives a crap about.

 

[Electrify]

Considering that the station is built near the intersection of a couple of two lane country roads, and that development potential is limited due to the greenbelt, it makes sense to focus this station towards parking. If successful, perhaps it can provide a development opportunity for the parking lots at the Richmond Hill GO station.

 

[mdrejhon]

Same will apply for electrification & RER I fear.

The good news is that some shared sections of the Kitchener GO (up to Pearson) corridor now have 3 upcoming electrified services going over the same sections of right of way (GO RER, SmartTrack and UPX electrified). Unless they cancel ALL three of them, electricification is definitely coming over some sections of GO routes. After all, SmartTrack is simply GO RER in disguise (pretty much exactly the same electric trainset -- just different branding and maybe different fares -- long-length single-decker electricified trains that stop at many of the same existing GO stations).

Perfect opportunity to barrel ahead with electricification, as quickly as economically feasible.

While Queens and City Hall are aligned, with whatever 2015 Feds forced to go along with it (or risk losing Ontario). Consequently, I have a very good feeling that we'll see electric infrastructure already at least begun construction by the end of this term; making it hard to cancel the momentum of electricification.

 

[DavidH]

After all, SmartTrack is simply GO RER in disguise (both plans long-length single-decker electricified trains that stop at many of the same stations).

Huh? Last we heard (the September Metrolinx board meeting), GO was still deciding on equipment for RER service but was considering various combinations of electric locos/bilevel coaches, dual model locos/bilevel coaches, and EMUs.

We'll likely hear more at next week's board meeting, but the assumption that GO plans on using single-deck trains seems very premature.

 

[mdrejhon]

We'll likely hear more at next week's board meeting, but the assumption that GO plans on using single-deck trains seems very premature.

While they are still deciding all the details, single level additions are all but assured, just by the sheer numbers and frequency they need to meet. They are going to bring in single-level trains while keeping using bilevels. Single levels are all but assured for 15-minute offpeak service; it makes no sense to use bilevels offpeak that frequently on many routes, even Lakeshore. But we need all of them (more bilevel trainsets, plus a whole networkful of single decker EMUs). Plus SmartTrack likely isn't going to use bilevels. They will stop at the same stations, so naturally, it is possible they'll use the same EMUs for the single-level trains.

Regardless, it's going to be quite a diversified fleet but will also include single-decker GOTrains for the frequent offpeak service (GO RER). There is definitely no way they'll permanently stay 100% bilevel for the GOTrain fleet as they go to 15-minute GO RER. Union revitalization will allow 2-3 times more train traffic by 2031, that's probably pretty much a doubling of Metrolinx's fleet, at the minimum.

Just by looking at the data, it's quite obvious there's a trainset commonalty potential between GO RER and SmartTrack. If they want to save money by using the same EMU trainsets for these (even with different livery and branding), that would be a good costcutting idea, especially since they'll be using a lot of the same station infrastructure. Even if not (e.g. political reasons) the train tech would still be interchangeable due to compatibility with electric/station infrastructure along shared route sections.

It's quite obvious, just by looking at the numbers and data.

Also, the meeting between Tory and Kathleen also confirmed my suspicions: SmartTrack is simply a tweaked GO RER route.

 

[muller877]

Huh? Last we heard (the September Metrolinx board meeting), GO was still deciding on equipment for RER service but was considering various combinations of electric locos/bilevel coaches, dual model locos/bilevel coaches, and EMUs.

We'll likely hear more at next week's board meeting, but the assumption that GO plans on using single-deck trains seems very premature.

Very soon GO/Metrolinx should commit to one level of boarding...the cost of having 2 different platform sizes is too prohibitive beyond the 4 high level stations they have now.

If they want high-level boardings, they should purchase dual-door level cars to replace the BBD trains.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:X-Tåget_på_Gävle_Centralstation_2005-05-14.JPG

If they want low-level boarding, they will need to look for low-level DMU/EMU trains (or 75% low level)
http://www.stadlerrail.com/media/uploads/GARRV0312e.pdf

But I understand that high-speed rail really needs to be high-level. So if we will have 3 types of trains at certain stations (i.e. high-speed, DMU/EMU and bi-level) I think it is a no-brainer to stop buying low-level bi-level trains and invest in dual-level boarding trains (and then build high-level platforms on the lines that will have EMU/DMU service first).

I also wonder if the current fleet of vehicles can be converted to dual-level boardings. Basically take above the wheels and add extra doors (once it becomes high-level you swap the seats above the wheels to where the low-level doors were)

 

[robmausser]

Single levels are all but assured for 15-minute offpeak service; it makes no sense to use bilevels offpeak that frequently on many routes, even Lakeshore. But we need all of them (more bilevel trainsets, plus a whole networkful of single decker EMUs).

There is definitely no way they'll permanently stay 100% bilevel for the GOTrain fleet as they go to 15-minute GO RER.

Don't be so sure, what everyone here forgets is that its 15 minute MINIMUM frequency all day.

The lakeshore lines already have service almost every 7 minutes at times during rush hour. Go look at the schedules.

The rush hour trains are already packed even with the 7-10 minute frequencies.

A lot of people here get confused with 15 minute... its 15 minute MINIMUM.