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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

This "Barrie or Stouffville" business and extra buses on trips with 10% growth makes me worry that Stouffville will only get more buses, but I'll wait patiently to see which line wins the sweepstakes!

Yes, strange wording on that. Why one or the other and what is the determining factor?

What will come first, 15-minute service on the lakeshore or all-day service to Brampton and Markham?

All-day to Brampton and Markam. It has taken what... 20 years to contemplate going to 30 minute service? It will take time for those new frequencies to be well utilized.
 
It has taken what... 20 years to contemplate going to 30 minute service?
GO started to talk about increasing the frequency of the Lakeshore line in the late 1960s, and the provincial government made serious commitments about it in the exchange for cancelling the Gardiner expressway extension to Scarborough in 1974. (the actual plan to do that morphed into the GO-ALRT project, that Premier Miller killed in 1985.)

So not 20 years, but over 40 years, with no fixed date yet announced of it ever happening.
 
GO started to talk about increasing the frequency of the Lakeshore line in the late 1960s, and the provincial government made serious commitments about it in the exchange for cancelling the Gardiner expressway extension to Scarborough in 1974. (the actual plan to do that morphed into the GO-ALRT project, that Premier Miller killed in 1985.)

So not 20 years, but over 40 years, with no fixed date yet announced of it ever happening.

And about 25 years ago I received the first of many letters I got saying the only thing keeping full service from Brampton was the needed capital to expand the capacity of the corridor. Now we are told there are no such plans. Things do change.
 
Yes, strange wording on that. Why one or the other and what is the determining factor?

At least for train service, my bet would be engineers. But that's just a guess.

GO owns the Barrie line (and I believe the Stouffville line as well, no?), so scheduling around freight and stuff isn't an issue like it is with the Milton or Kitchener line. That pretty much leaves either sufficient operating expenses, enough train sets, or enough engineers for those train sets.
 
When you ask when the all day service will come, the answer is "there are no plans" (we have, I believe, discussed this before).
When you ask when Lakeshore 30-minute service comes, you get the same answer. It doesn't mean that there are really no plans.
 
There is a plan to have more service to Brampton in 2015 and that depends on engineers and operation cost, just like the rest of the system. Engineers don't grown on trees, but require 2-3 years of experience before you can fully drive a train. Not everyone can drive train who applies for that position.

There not a lot of people banging on the doors to be an engineer like bus drivers since they are not prepared to work their way up the ranks.

GO has the equipment sitting in the yards to put the extra service out there and would be a better return on the investment for buying them if they saw more hours of service.
 
There is a plan to have more service to Brampton in 2015 and that depends on engineers and operation cost, just like the rest of the system. Engineers don't grown on trees, but require 2-3 years of experience before you can fully drive a train. Not everyone can drive train who applies for that position.

There not a lot of people banging on the doors to be an engineer like bus drivers since they are not prepared to work their way up the ranks.

GO has the equipment sitting in the yards to put the extra service out there and would be a better return on the investment for buying them if they saw more hours of service.

This particular discussion is about lengthy unfulfilled promises and the "full service to Brampton one the capital works are done" is one that is old and will be unfulfilled. Yes there will be an increase in service in 2015, but it will be far from full.

Things do change......particularly in a world where delivery times are so protracted. I should dig out that letter that GO sent me telling me there would be no new services introduced until the existing stations were all receiving full (lakeshore level) service and ask how Niagara Falls/Barrie/K-W fit into that? :)

As for crews being the reason......they have had a lot of time to deal with this and if the amount of service ends up being limited by available engineers/crews then that is just a management failing.
 
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Is there any freight currently carried on the Barrie trackage, or did CN retain rights to do so as part of the sale?
 
This particular discussion is about lengthy unfulfilled promises and the "full service to Brampton one the capital works are done" is one that is old and will be unfulfilled. Yes there will be an increase in service in 2015, but it will be far from full.

Things do change......particularly in a world where delivery times are so protracted. I should dig out that letter that GO sent me telling me there would be no new services introduced until the existing stations were all receiving full (lakeshore level) service and ask how Niagara Falls/Barrie/K-W fit into that? :)

As for crews being the reason......they have had a lot of time to deal with this and if the amount of service ends up being limited by available engineers/crews then that is just a management failing.

Get real saying management fail for getting engineers. You go and apply for that position and see what happens as well find out when you will be a qualify engineer to operate a train on your own.

As soon some of these engineers get on line, CP, CN and VIA will try to take them from GO. See what happens to you if you are involved in a fatal rail accident as I have known a few of them and have seen what it did to them to the point they quit. These are non GO engineers.

You cry over service to Brampton is the same as me calling for 30 minutes service on the Lakeshore that was promise years ago and may show up finally in 2013. Live with it.

Everyone wants full service, but if tracks, crews and funding is not there, what is GO going to do. Moving to electrification is going to be costly, time consuming and where is the money to do it as well buy the equipment??

Milton Line was supposed to be 3 track with all day service by 2011 up from 2008 and that project has not started or funded considering there is an EA for it on the books for over a billion dollar cost for it that has far more riders than the Georgetown line. This goes back before 2020 came out.

GO was to be an GTA system and is now a 90 mile radius system that is eating up funds to service the areas outside the GTA area which takes funding away from the original GTA area.

Poor management/lack of vision is to blame for some of the current mess up to 1995, as well some of it now. Funding for it was gutted up to 2003 including transit hasn't help.

Every train you add to the line, you need 5 engineers for full service for it. The longer the travel time is, you need another train or 2 if not more to get to the service level you want. Take the travel time of a round trip on X line, add in layover time for the crew and then divided it by X headway you want to see. This will get you X trains and multiply it by 5 to see the number of engineers you will need for X line. Then see what is require for the current system that needs 15% spare engineers to operate the system. I have factor spare in my 5 number. You will always have personnel on holiday, sick leave and X reason off daily and why you need spare engineers.
 
Get real saying management fail for getting engineers. You go and apply for that position and see what happens as well find out when you will be a qualify engineer to operate a train on your own.

As soon some of these engineers get on line, CP, CN and VIA will try to take them from GO. See what happens to you if you are involved in a fatal rail accident as I have known a few of them and have seen what it did to them to the point they quit. These are non GO engineers.

I won't be applying for an engineer's position any time soon.....and the public should be thankfull for that. That said, any time managment put forward a business plan (in any business) that proposes expansion, personell issues are (and have to be) part of that plan. The advantage that GO/Metrolinx have over most businesses is that their expansion needed a lot of capital work/construction long before the personnell were needed....so they had/have lots of lead time to deal with those issues.

I, obviously, cannot speak to what recruitment efforts they have undertaken since they put forward the expansion plan but if they are going to, at the end of the day, fall short of their expansion plans because they are short of needed personnell then I do stand by the statement that this is a management fail.

When did the work start on the Georgetown South/West Toronto project? 2009? If the goal was to deliver full service by 2015, is 6 years enough to recruit and train crews/engineers? I would say it should have been and, if so, then "lack of crews" is not a valid reason/excuse in 2015 if the expanded service falls short (as we are "promised" it will) at that time.


You cry over service to Brampton is the same as me calling for 30 minutes service on the Lakeshore that was promise years ago and may show up finally in 2013. Live with it.

I may be complaining but I am not crying. They are, however, similar wishes (in that they are "old promises") and I was responding to someone that said (paraphrase) the promise of 30 minute Lakeshore service is older than the other promises so it should have priority. The environment has changed and will change and promises/expectations have to evolve with that. As an example, to say that the promise to expand the Lakeshore service dates back to the 60s and early 70s may be true but, at that time, the Lakeshore line was the only rail service GO had, so that promise can not be taken in the same context now that there are 5 non-Lakeshore lines, each of which has far less service than Lakeshore and some of which (through time and changing demographics) serve higher population areas and, therefore, the potential fare recovery of expanding their service likely far exceeds doubling the off peak service on the Lakeshore line(s).

If anything, those "old" promises just show how valuable managing expectations (with fully thought out expansion plans - which include staffing) is. I am not making it up when I say the "old" promise to GTown riders was (paraphrase again) "if/when we get the money to do the corridor upgrades (including, but not limited to, the west Toronto Diamond and Union Station upgrades) the GTown line will get full service....until then, we will do the best we can".

So the day that work is complete in 2015 and the, now, K-W line does not get full service, that "old" promise is not deliverable and is as valuable as someone in the late 60s early 70s saying the service on Lakeshore will increase to 30 minute all day service.

If the reason that (or any) promises are broken is that they have not used their years (decades?) of lead time to resolve their crew/staffing issue(s) then, again, that is a failure of management.

Obviously, I have a "tie" to the K-W line but take that one out of the equation.....are we to actually believe (in the context now of system with 5 rail lines not on the Lakeshore) that increasing the service on Lakeshore to 30 minutes all day, 7 days a week, has a greater need and priority over any other line getting to the same service level as Lakeshore already has?
 
As soon some of these engineers get on line, CP, CN and VIA will try to take them from GO. See what happens to you if you are involved in a fatal rail accident as I have known a few of them and have seen what it did to them to the point they quit. These are non GO engineers.

Do "fatal rail accidents" happen more on GO trains than freight trains? Serious question; I truly feel for those who have had to endure this.
 
Obviously, I have a "tie" to the K-W line but take that one out of the equation.....are we to actually believe (in the context now of system with 5 rail lines not on the Lakeshore) that increasing the service on Lakeshore to 30 minutes all day, 7 days a week, has a greater need and priority over any other line getting to the same service level as Lakeshore already has?

Yes, because there are simply more people along that line.
 

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