PL1
Senior Member
I bet this cancellation will cost the Ontario taxpayer...
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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)
- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
Urban Sky
Senior Member
With sustained Ontario-levels of infrastructure funding, Deutsche Bahn would approach Swiss reliability levels, just like neither Swiss nor Japanese railroads would achieve better results than DB if faced with the latter’s chronically underinvested and overburdened rail infrastructure.
Germany’s rail performance deficits are a political (federal) failure, not an organizational (DB) one, and the decade-long experience in squeezing the most out of insufficient infrastructure makes DB a much better fit for Canada than anything France and Spain have to offer, which have decided decades ago to concentrate their rail infrastructure funds on HSR and metropolitan passenger rail systems, while severely neglecting (France) or almost abandoning (Spain) their freight rail operations…
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rbt
Senior Member
Aecon Concessions was part of the Operations contract.
Aecon, FCC Construcción S.A. is part of the design/construction contract.
Aecon consortium partners with Metrolinx as new operations and maintenance partner for GO Transit service
Aecon Group Inc. announced that ONxpress Operations Inc. (“OOI”), a member of ONxpress Transportation Partners (“ONxpress”), will serve as the new operations and maintenance partner for the GO Transit system in the Greater Golden Horseshoe Area.
crs1026
Superstar
This is effectively a five-year setback, considering how much time it took ML to work out its procurement model, execute the RFQ/RFP decisions, and then begin the codevelopment phase.
The loss of the team which was recruited and organized is a huge loss....especially for anyone who took the chance and left a job in the "old" regime.
The disruption that ML already incurred when Alstom began to wind down its involvment (especially the pause in training new operators at a time when the system is heading for massive upsizing) is a further impact.
The map that was posted in the Electrification thread hints that 15 minute service is no longer planned on some routes. That's a huge retrenchment in the design.
I hope this is the start of further media inquiries.
- Paul
The loss of the team which was recruited and organized is a huge loss....especially for anyone who took the chance and left a job in the "old" regime.
The disruption that ML already incurred when Alstom began to wind down its involvment (especially the pause in training new operators at a time when the system is heading for massive upsizing) is a further impact.
The map that was posted in the Electrification thread hints that 15 minute service is no longer planned on some routes. That's a huge retrenchment in the design.
I hope this is the start of further media inquiries.
- Paul
ShonTron
Moderator
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Yeah, I’m annoyed by all the hot takes lately, a big shift from his previous work. But now he’s got a big following, which amplifies these.
But it doesn’t help that Metrolinx and the province are as clandestine as they are to clear things up.
Reecemartin
Active Member
I'm very familiar with what occurred. I've had innumerable conversations with people over the years about this. I even was close (friends even) with a number of folks that came over from Europe and Asia, realized Metrolinx wasn't going to be a good customer, or even a willing partner and realized their talents were better used, and actually respected elsewhere - the way a lot of these people were treated in this whole situation sickens me.
As for me "often speaking publicly without a full understanding of what occurred" I personally think my signal to noise ratio is substantially better than average, and that its hard to maintain that while also saying a lot - and I can assure that the signal is strong on this stuff.
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Reecemartin
Active Member
Always something to be annoyed with! I sometimes wish there was more nice to say. But, I'll shut up.
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chrisw
Active Member
City News also reported on it and they linked to their article in 2022.
Ontario government awards $1.6B contract for 1st phase of GO Transit train electrification
The contract sets up the Ontario government's plan to electrify GO Transit's rail lines. If fully built out, much more frequent service could follow.
toronto.citynews.ca
I'm not sure if it's the cost of the development phase and/or enabling works.
Northern Light
Superstar
I too have talked to people inside both organizations.
I endeavoured to send you a message on this, but you have those turned off.
Suffice to say, Its not so much that you're 'wrong'; its that your post doesn't paint a full picture of what happened. I get the challenge in doing that by the way........... I'm not unsympathetic on that point.
Krypto98
Active Member
From people I know that work at GO they were proposing some very unrealistic things that with the Transport Canada rest regulations would make the operations very difficult. As a railroader, I probably have a bit of insight of the crewing requirements. For example we can't work more than 12 hours. Allegedly OnX wanted to remove crew bases and travel allowances and have everyone based in Mimico. So if you got called for a Kitchener morning job off the spareboard. Instead of driving to Kitchener, you would first drive to Mimico then take the crew van to Kitchener. Which already eats at an hour of your duty time, in rush hour maybe 2 hours... I don't know how much is actually true or just rumors passed around by crews.
safoosh
New Member
Made an account just to say that I have been subscribed to your YouTube channel since you were around 7k subs and your videos are always something I enjoy and looked forward to watching. With your shift away from making videos I was happy to see that you're letting other transit creators use your platform to promote their work as it was always nice to see you commenting on and giving praise to smaller channels such as transitthinker. Thanks for all the work that you have done!
Bojaxs
Senior Member
Not sure if you know this, but when GO schedules their employees and assign them trains, do they take into consideration where the employees live? Do they typically try to assign their staff to work the line closest to where they live? Or are there scenarios where a staff member lives in Scarborough, and is assigned the first morning train out of Kitchener, and expected to drive all the way from Scarborough to Kitchener? Then once their shift is done, that same staff member would have get back to Kitchener to pick up their car and drive in afternoon rush hour traffic on the 401 back to Scarborough.
EDIT: I think what's not being talked about enough here is that fact that Federal regulations around rest periods, overtime, & safety for railroad staff essentially made it extremely difficult for DB to implement European best practices for GO. At which point the service can't really be change much from what GO currently offers. Metrolinx must have figured there's little they can do to really shake up GO service because they're hamstrung by federal railroad regulations, therefore it made sense to cut ties with DB.
The question is, why didn't Metrolinx, or the Ontario government, consult with the Federal railroad regulators before bringing in DB and signing these massive contracts? Making grandiose promises about European style passenger rail in Toronto.
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SkylineHorizons
Active Member
It’s actually the exact opposite. There is zero consideration for where staff live(though, to be fair, very few large employers take this into account). Instead, staff are expected to relocate or commute to accommodate service needs. The frustration arises when significant changes are frequently made to starting locations following service adjustments.
For example, several jobs based out of Kitchener and Barrie were reassigned to Willowbrook in the last couple years due to service changes. The reduction in jobs at those outposts meant that many crew members who had previously started in Barrie and Kitchener now had to drive themselves to Willowbrook, just to work a Barrie or Kitchener job. Then they would begin their shift by driving a company van all the way back to Barrie or Kitchener-I kid you not!! Before operating a train back down to Toronto. After completing their run(s), they would trade off at Union, deadhead to Mimico, walk back to Willowbrook concluding their shift, before driving all the way back home to Kitchener or Barrie. Previously, those same crews would work split shifts: one morning trip from Barrie to Union, and one evening trip back, some times with a short flip added in. But due to increased utlization of trains for mid-day service, the company came up with this convoluted scheduling.
Forsure, changes had to be made because trains that used to sit unused in the yard during the midday between rush hour trips were now being utilized for mid day service. However, the way Alstom went about it not only created massive fatigue on these crews by forcing them to unnecessarily drive several extra hours per day, it also wasted valuable train operating time on van driving. This all could have been resolved much more sensibly had they simply incorporate a private transportation service-which they had done in the past.
Here's an 'example' breakdown of what I mean;
Shift Breakdown
Originally:
- 5:00 a.m. – 9:00 a.m. ("A half" of split shift)
- Start shift, prep train and leave the layover
- Operate Barrie to Union
- Yard train at Willowbrook
- 3:00 p.m. – 7:00 p.m. ("B half")
- Start shift, prep train, operate from Willowbrook to Union
- Then Union to Barrie
- Yard at the layover
Company Changes:
- 3:00 a.m. – 11:00 a.m. (now a Straight shift)
- Said Barrie crew must now first drive to Toronto
- Shift starts at Willowbrook
- Crew drives company van to Barrie (arrive 5:00 a.m.)
- Prep train and leave the layover
- Operate Barrie to Union (arrive 7:30 a.m.)
- Operate Union to Mount Joy and back (arrive 10:00 a.m.)
- Trade off at Union
- Deadhead to Mimico
- Walk to Willowbrook
- Off duty at 11:00 a.m
- Crew memebrs drive back to Barrie
Better Alternative Option:
- 5:00 a.m. – 1:00 p.m. (Straight shift as well)
- Shift starts at Barrie
- Prep train and leave the layover
- Operate Barrie to Union (arrive 7:30 a.m.)
- Operate Union to Mount Joy and back (arrive 10:00 a.m.)
- Operate Union to Bramalea and back (arrive 11:30 a.m.) - additional flip!
- Trade off at Union
- Private taxi/transport service drives the crew back to Barrie
Not only does this Barrie crew save themselves and couples of hours worth of driving time per day, but they'd get an additional train flip out of them rather than that time being wasted just back up to Barrie. Why not just move to Toronto? Because these changes happen all the time. This change lasted for about a year or so before it was reversed. As to what started this stupidity;
-the company(Bombardier at the time) got rid of the private contractor they had taxing crews years ago. Afaik CPKC, CN and VIA crews are all still driven to locations by transportation contractors. Tbf there were many complaints about the service, but there are other companies they could have used, but safe to say they would cost more.
-the company must have figured it was cheaper to make crews drive themselves, even considering they had to buy/leased vans and insure them.
-once the vans were procured the decision was essentially set in stone. And while I don't beleive anything as egregious as the above is happening anymore, many crews still spend countless hours driving vans at the start or end of their shifts.
urbancog
Active Member
I found the Star's article about Metrolinx quietly dropping DB and AECON from the O&M contract disturbing. But, perhaps we need to see this in the context of DB selling off both Arriva and Schenker, in allignment with their 2023 business strategy to focus entirely on improving domestic German rail infrastructure and services.
This quote from DB CEO Richard Lutz, on Business Travel News Europe, sums up their strategy, "The sale of Schenker will reduce complexity for DB and allow us to fully focus on our core business".
This quote from DB CEO Richard Lutz, on Business Travel News Europe, sums up their strategy, "The sale of Schenker will reduce complexity for DB and allow us to fully focus on our core business".
smallspy
Senior Member
They can't, nor are they allowed to.
Just like the transit agencies, rostering and the jobs you get are based on how senior you are. I know crews that are quite senior and so are able to pick jobs that allow them to, in one case, walk to work, while in another is able to manipulate his schedule in order to be home to receive his kids when they come home from school.
But the more junior you are - and especially if you are just arriving on the proverbial scene - you will be forced to work wherever the company deems that they need you. and that may mean working out of a base or division on the opposite side of the city.
I don't think that's specifically true - for instance, I don't believe that the work and rest rules are substantially different there than they are here. A lot of the operational differences are technological.
What they were trying to do was get the regulator to revise the rules in order to maximize their profit. And thankfully, they got zero traction with that.
Why would Metrolinx or the Ontario Government's business to try and maximize the profit and aid OnXpress's business case? It certainly shouldn't have been their business to know about all of the details of how they were going to go about their objectives, just that they had plans to meet those objectives.
Dan