GO Transit Midtown Corridor

[micheal_can]

I've used the Go Train to get to Kitchener at 11:30 am in the morning? This wasn't possible 2 years ago

2WAD on all lines will be transformative, but expecting incoming or outgoing GO trains to stop at the Smartrack stations doesn't make sense if you want to keep a reasonable travel time.

 

[Undead]

Stouffville is planned for robust 2WAD and a lot of noise being made lately about midday service on Milton. Barrie already has 2WAD albeit with some gaps but those will be filled in the coming years. There's no doubt the entire system is moving toward 2WAD. I mean, even Lakeshore used be hourly during midday. And look how well it was doing pre-COVID once they got it to 15 mins.

 

[micheal_can]

Stouffville is planned for robust 2WAD and a lot of noise being made lately about midday service on Milton. Barrie already has 2WAD albeit with some gaps but those will be filled in the coming years. There's no doubt the entire system is moving toward 2WAD. I mean, even Lakeshore used be hourly during midday. And look how well it was doing pre-COVID once they got it to 15 mins.

Now double the number of times it has to stop. Even with EMUs it still will negatively affect the travel time. That is why if they can fit express (GO) and local(Smartrack), even if all are EMUs, that would be the better option.

 

[nfitz]

I mean, even Lakeshore used be hourly during midday. And look how well it was doing pre-COVID once they got it to 15 mins.

Lakeshore is every 15 minutes now (which is bizarre when the UP Express is still at every 30 minutes. (well, I guess Lakeshore East isn't every 15 minutes this week )

Which is actually better than pre-covid, as they only had it up to 3 trains an hour on Lakeshore West in 2019/2020 - unless there was a change in very early 2020 that I completely missed.

 

[DirectionNorth]

2WAD on all lines will be transformative, but expecting incoming or outgoing GO trains to stop at the Smartrack stations doesn't make sense if you want to keep a reasonable travel time.

Plenty of people from Richmond Hill take the Yonge Subway, which has 15 stops between Finch and Union.

Are we building transit for suburbs? Of course travel times will be impacted, but I don't think that the impact of a few minutes would create ridership loss, compared to well-placed stations (that suburbanites can also use).

Who are we building transit for?

 

[Nate_theUrbanist]

2WAD on all lines will be transformative, but expecting incoming or outgoing GO trains to stop at the Smartrack stations doesn't make sense if you want to keep a reasonable travel time.

(1)In order to drive local ridership at Smarttrack stations you have to keep reasonable headways. Once you get to 30+ mins, you won't get riders within the 416. People will just take a bus/streetcar that they know comes every 15 mins.
(2) Stations like Front-Spadina and East Harbour are going to have significant employment areas by the stations. Especially if we eventually get fare integration at some point, these non-Union trips are gonna be important.

These two considerations far outweigh the couple of extra mins Union-bound trips will take.

 

[micheal_can]

Plenty of people from Richmond Hill take the Yonge Subway, which has 15 stops between Finch and Union.

Are we building transit for suburbs? Of course travel times will be impacted, but I don't think that the impact of a few minutes would create ridership loss, compared to well-placed stations (that suburbanites can also use).

Who are we building transit for?

They take it because YRT is better fare integrated with the TTC than with GO. Fix that, and GO would become even more popular.

The GTA doesn't know who they are building transit for. GO seems to have been focused on commuters from the suburbs, but with 2WAD service, it is clear they are trying to move away from just that.

(1)In order to drive local ridership at Smarttrack stations you have to keep reasonable headways. Once you get to 30+ mins, you won't get riders within the 416. People will just take a bus/streetcar that they know comes every 15 mins.
(2) Stations like Front-Spadina and East Harbour are going to have significant employment areas by the stations. Especially if we eventually get fare integration at some point, these non-Union trips are gonna be important.

These two considerations far outweigh the couple of extra mins Union-bound trips will take.

Which only proves that some sort of local/express service should happen. GO should stop at all stations that are connected to some sort of RT within the city of Toronto. that should be kept as an express service. The other stations should be a local service that does not extend to the far reaches of that GO line. Take someone who uses the London GO. Add a half hour to their already 4+ hour trip. Even using somewhere like Brampton to Union, ad 30 minutes to their 45 minute schedule. That is why a local/express service is needed.

 

[Undead]

That is why a local/express service is needed.

I believe this is what we're getting on GO RER. Pre-covid express and local service already existed on Lakeshore and Barrie. Don't remember if Stouffville did.

 

[micheal_can]

I believe this is what we're getting on GO RER. Pre-covid express and local service already existed on Lakeshore and Barrie. Don't remember if Stouffville did.

I think it always has. I remember some schedules showing that it skips some stations way back when.

 

[DirectionNorth]

They take it because YRT is better fare integrated with the TTC than with GO. Fix that, and GO would become even more popular.

The point is that people can and will take transit when there's lots of intermediate stops.

I would be surprised if most of the YR people getting on at Finch are going downtown.

The GTA doesn't know who they are building transit for. GO seems to have been focused on commuters from the suburbs, but with 2WAD service, it is clear they are trying to move away from just that.

Then, do we "optimize" suburban commutes or do we open up faster service for the inner suburbs?

Which only proves that some sort of local/express service should happen.

That would be a logical step.

GO should stop at all stations that are connected to some sort of RT within the city of Toronto. that should be kept as an express service. The other stations should be a local service that does not extend to the far reaches of that GO line. Take someone who uses the London GO. Add a half hour to their already 4+ hour trip. Even using somewhere like Brampton to Union, add 30 minutes to their 45 minute schedule. That is why a local/express service is needed.

 

[Nate_theUrbanist]

Which only proves that some sort of local/express service should happen. GO should stop at all stations that are connected to some sort of RT within the city of Toronto. that should be kept as an express service. The other stations should be a local service that does not extend to the far reaches of that GO line. Take someone who uses the London GO. Add a half hour to their already 4+ hour trip. Even using somewhere like Brampton to Union, ad 30 minutes to their 45 minute schedule. That is why a local/express service is needed.

I agree with this sentiment, but I do have concerns...

Let's use a trip from GO Kitchener.
Express: 8 Pre-416 + Mount Dennis, Bloor, Union
Local: 8 Pre-416 + Woodbine-Hwy 27, Mount Dennis, Stockyards, Bloor, King-Liberty and Union

Assuming the UPX remains as its planned, you have 30min headways at Woodbine, Stockyards and King-Liberty. Either way, that simply can't be sustained. And to be fair, we're talking 3 essentially equally spaced stops. I'd have to look into it but, unless you get rid of some RT stations, I really don't know if the difference is a whole 30 mins.

Perhaps this is just a greater symptom of poor network planning. Stations like King-Liberty and Front-Spadina really should be serving most RER Lines, and many of these longer distance trips are probably better served by VIA(though I don't blame Metrolinx for that).

 

[duffo]

Who are we building transit for?

Voters.

 

[micheal_can]

I agree with this sentiment, but I do have concerns...

Let's use a trip from GO Kitchener.
Express: 8 Pre-416 + Mount Dennis, Bloor, Union
Local: 8 Pre-416 + Woodbine-Hwy 27, Mount Dennis, Stockyards, Bloor, King-Liberty and Union

Assuming the UPX remains as its planned, you have 30min headways at Woodbine, Stockyards and King-Liberty. Either way, that simply can't be sustained. And to be fair, we're talking 3 essentially equally spaced stops. I'd have to look into it but, unless you get rid of some RT stations, I really don't know if the difference is a whole 30 mins.

Perhaps this is just a greater symptom of poor network planning. Stations like King-Liberty and Front-Spadina really should be serving most RER Lines, and many of these longer distance trips are probably better served by VIA(though I don't blame Metrolinx for that).

Is RER the 2WAD or the Smartrack?
Should Via be expected to stop at those new stops too?

Let's take the London GO service as a good example.

For Via, we currently have:
London
St. Marys
Stratford
Kitchener
Guelph
Georgetown
Brampton
Malton
Union Station

For the GO service we have

London
St. Marys
Stratford
Kitchener
Guelph
Acton
Georgetown
Mount Pleasant
Brampton
Bramalea
Malton
Etobicoke North
Weston
Mount Dennis Opening 2022
Bloor
Union Station

Thee UPX is

Pearson
Weston
Bloor
Mount Dennis Opening 2022
Union Station

My suggestions for a local service
Brampton
Bramalea
Malton
Etobicoke North
Weston
Mount Dennis
St. Clair
Bloor
Liberty Village
Union Station

Doing this will mean that the service can meet the demands of the most amount of travelers while still being as fast as it can be.

Voters.

Never a more truer statement made.

 

[tsm1072]

Is RER the 2WAD or the Smartrack?

RER is both. GO will run a mix of local and express trains. It seems you argument is either GO is incapable of running the mixed service, or that we should have another brand of service to separate local and express. Do we really need a different livery and service provider to differentiate local and express, or can GO just run it all?

 

[Coolstar]

Do we really need a different livery and service provider to differentiate local and express, or can GO just run it all?

Not something I would be against. Keep the GO brand but you could differentiate the different types of services provided. Here's an example:

GO Regional Express Rail: All-day 15 min electrified service.

GO Intercity: The longer distance services. Ex. Union to Niagara, Union to London.

GO Home: The remaining peak-only services.