AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
But of course the rub is that GO just nixed their own S-Bahn/RER project and doubled down on the existing service model.
AoD
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GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx
- Thread starter innsertnamehere
- Start date
But of course the rub is that GO just nixed their own S-Bahn/RER project and doubled down on the existing service model.
AoD
tsm1072
Active Member
They never said it was cheap, just that there was space. There is space for 4-5 tracks along the whole corridor, but building those tracks isn't cheap, as it would involve a lot of grading, retaining walls, bridge spans, new grade separations, etc. all while doing that construction adjacent to an active rail line. There would also need to be a rail to rail grade separation built to move GO trains from the South side to the North side of the corridor to access the existing station platforms. It seems CP has provided an estimated cost for this work at some point last year as the provincial government asked the federal government for several billion dollars for the project.
Would you prefer to separate out Milton line expansion to its own thread? You seem to bring it up in every GO and Metrolinx related thread, and there is plenty of information that has already been posted about why this is not a current active project and the scope to make it one. Would it be easier for you if it was all in one place so that you can get your questions answered without de-railing other threads?
nfitz
Superstar
Not so much a question. We've discussed this all before. Multiple times.
I don't think anyone said it was going to be cheap. It's a lot more than adding tracks. They'll need grade separations. And rebuild all the stations. Presumably signalling upgrades.
Perhaps if Mississauga would actually push things like this, it might have had a higher priority - but perhaps Metrolinx would have been better shape on these projects if they hadn't tried to do 5 lines simultaneously - let alone 6.
Reecemartin
Active Member
Go look at cities in Australia (Perth and Brisbane) and Auckland. They have gone from diesel systems with dated signalling to electrification, EMUs, and ETCS etc. Brisbane is even getting an RER tunnel with screen doors in time for their Olympics (it'll be open years before to be clear)
hw621
Senior Member
Like I said, it is not rocket science. It has been done in other places decades ago. Don't understand why Canada is so difficult and unique.
cplchanb
Senior Member
its probably because we let the brain drain when we gave our souls to diesel in the 60s.
Urban Sky
Senior Member
Nobody said that it’s rocket science, as in: that any of the attempted steps is overly complex or technologically immature/risky. The problem (as with HSR) is that we are trying to eliminate the backlog of projects we have accummulated over the last 50+ years compared to those cities you look at (including the interesting Australian/NZ examples @Reecemartin has provided and which I am still digesting) in one single gigaproject. And just as with HSR, we keep stumbling while trying to take 10 steps at once.
Again: I’m not cautioning against the inherent ambition in what we are trying to achieve, but how fast. It might be faster to climb up a wall by taking a big jump, but by the time you finally manage to jump onto the top of the wall, you probably could have climbed up the ladder dozens of times…
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duty free
Active Member
GO Expansion was originally planned to be what 260km roughly?
Cutting that in half would easily suffice for a Toronto version of the Elizabeth Line (dream scenario). Unlike the Elizabeth Line, Toronto doesn't need > 40km of tunnel either, maybe 1/8 of that or none at all even.
Just having one core electrified line with 4 branches: Lakeshore East (to Pickering), Lakeshore West (to Oakville), UPX, Stouffville (to Unionville) would be a game changer for the GTA.
Keep Kitchener GO, Barrie GO, Lakeshore West GO, Lakeshore East GO and Stouffville GO as is for now. Dedicate two tracks to electrification and the the rest to diesel.
Or would that be too complex still for this province? Would that still be considered a giga project or just a solid project? I don't even know what is attainable anymore or realistic.
Bojaxs
Senior Member
Running electric and diesel train side by side on LSW;
- Would probably have to construct a fourth track along LSW to Oakville. Not sure if that's feasible.
- CN still runs trains up to Clarkson. Hence the need for a fourth track.
north-of-anything
Active Member
Toronto is in a rare and fortunate position where there are no tunnels needed at all because there are no stranded sections of the system that stop at different downtown terminals. The central corridor through Union is sufficiently wide to be able to fit all of the existing services.
Attempting to branch the Lakeshore GO lines within Toronto adds a needless level of complication that just needs to get entangled later. I'm not going to pretend to know whether it is better to electrify one line at a time or starting from Union and proceeding outwards, but rather than have separate all-electric and all-diesel services, we should really be getting dual-mode locomotives when electrification begins. But that's a fair ways off.
To me, what's defined as a "solid project" is one that is quantifiable and gets the system closer to a built-out, reliable, electrified system. Those solid projects are things like grade separations, double tracking, and utility relocations that have tangible benefits now. Electrifying the Lakeshore line from Oakville to Whitby will be a solid project soon, and then Kitchener, Barrie, and Stouffville can be "hooked in" over time.
generalcanada
Senior Member
Relevant parts from the board meeting.
If things were scaled back massively theres no indication here
If things were scaled back massively theres no indication here
The REAL
New Member
To be quite honest, it's absolutely EMBARRASSING how slow transit construction/upgrades take in Canada. What also baffles me is how expensive it is to build here versus overseas or in asia. I don't understand how we continue to go at a snails pace when the rest of world is evolving. it's like Canada is is stuck in the caveman era.
Urban Sky
Senior Member
This is a sentiment shared pretty much universally across rich democracies and hardly unique to Canada. To name two examples from my home region in Frankfurt: the Regionale Tangente West will open in 2029 and thus 24 years after planning started (in 2005) and the Nordmainische S-Bahn will only open in 2031 and thus 46 years after early planning started (around 1985).
This is more of a North American than specifically Canadian problem and to a large part due to its underdeveloped industry capabilities which would standardize construction and thus keep costs down. Every project is ad-hoc and its design bespoke and that escalates costs. In fact, the GTHA is pretty much the only major place here in North America which has a constant stream of projects which could encourage the experts to settle here, but even they struggle to exploit badly needed Economies of Scale. What would really help would be strong cooperations between major industry players and universities here in Ontario, as have been long established in countries like Germany or the UK. Deutsche Bahn alone has currently 105 openings to train Engineers in a combined university degree and apprenticeship (“dual studies”):
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CapitalSeven
Senior Member
Look, the current Ontario government went for the most expensive option in Scarborough and Etobicoke and now there's not enough money left to do what they said they would do for GO. It's pretty simple. I hear the bitching about service to STC and my first instinct is not to cry. Well there was a rapid transit stop there for 40 years and for 1 billion it could have been there for another 40. But we opted to spend 5 billion to scrap it and Mississauga is out in the cold. Careful what you ask for.
nfitz
Superstar
It was a lot les than $1 billion in the 2006 plan that TTC approved - before Miller put the brakes on, and rolled into the Transit City LRT scheme. At that point, upgrading the line to handle the newer SRT vehicles (that they use in Vancouver) would have been $190 million, and only require an 8-month suspension of service. Though that didn't include the tunnel modifications. An extension to Sheppard and then Malvern was also planned.