GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

[steveintoronto]

Here's is John Tory's letter to Andy Byford, and take *very special note* of the last paragraph. In all the conversations had on "the Relief Line" I can find no promises of it being "a subway vehicle" let alone a "TR". It hasn't been decided yet, the preliminary design stage is only just begun.

Tory's words on SmartTrack will come around and around to haunt him, on both the nature of the Relief Line, and the SSE:

https://www.scribd.com/document/349...nge-Line-Mayor-s-Letter-to-TTC-CEO#from_embed

I eagerly await reference to "Andy Byford saying that there's no doubt that the mode will be a subway."

RER in tunnel renders most of the context of the present "Relief Line will be subway" not only moot, but an atrocious waste of investment and potential.

I'll say it again: If Toronto raises financing, they can do as they want with it. But if the bulk comes from QP, and an amount is matched by the Feds, we'd best be getting something a hell of a lot more worthwhile than a toy subway yet again.

Edit to Add: I've just realized a highly troubling aspect for "Hydrogen Powered GO Trains". And this for inner Toronto, underpasses and tunnels, let alone Union Station, could be a real show-stopper:

For the same reason hydrogen vehicles are banned from underground parking, hydrogen powered trains would also have to be due to the hazard of leaking gas, either from poor fittings, or from a collision. Permeated salts might offer some form of controlled release, but so far, in a quick Google, I can't see Metrolinx addressing the point.

I'm only just starting to delve on this, but already, some very troubling research. Here's one:
[...]

[...]

https://www.cob.nl/fileadmin/kennisbank/New Energy Carriers in Tunnels.pdf

Metrolinx had best keep its mind on the tracks ahead, and get them electrified in the tried and trusted way, and keep the promises made...

 

[kEiThZ]

Ontario Seeking Design Concepts for Hydrogen-Powered GO Trains

RFP closes in less than a month (October 12).
Are there any other trains in the market out there except for Alstom Coradia iLint?
Given the very short timeframe, my gut feeling is that they are serious with this alternative over traditional electrification. They could (potentially) save billions on the infrastructure that would be required for the traditional route. Plus, solve the big problem at Union.

I haven't heard of anyone other than iLint. And that's not a bi-level. Haven't read the RFP, but I sincerely hope they aren't putting in the fix by not studying it in context.

I get that they want to save on the huge electrification costs. But hydrail is the equivalent of using batteries. They'll have plants using excess power to generate hydrogen at night and then use that as fuel in the morning. So the question becomes then, why aren't we also studying batteries for rail? Or partial electrification with battery or fuel cell or internal combustion engine supplementation?

 

[M636RF]

I haven't heard of anyone other than iLint. And that's not a bi-level. Haven't read the RFP, but I sincerely hope they aren't putting in the fix by not studying it in context.

I get that they want to save on the huge electrification costs. But hydrail is the equivalent of using batteries. They'll have plants using excess power to generate hydrogen at night and then use that as fuel in the morning. So the question becomes then, why aren't we also studying batteries for rail? Or partial electrification with battery or fuel cell or internal combustion engine supplementation?

This Hydrogen plan seems quiet unrealistic right now. While yes this technology has been used in a limited number of rail vehicles, nothing so far has come close to providing the power a high capacity bilevel set would need to operate. I'm also not sure how one could fit Hydrogen tanks and fuel cells onto Bilevel cars anyway.

Batteries are in the same boat as Hydrogen. They've only been used in smaller applications, and probably aren't powerful enough to efficiently run a Bilevel EMU (although I do think you're right to question why they weren't studied by Metrolinx as well). I'm also curious how much weight Hydrogen fuel cells or batteries would add to a railcar, and the affects this might have.

In the future these technologies will probably mature, but until then Metrolinx should focus on electrifying the busiest GO routes, like the Lakeshore lines, where the costs of electrification can be justified.

 

[steveintoronto]

This Hydrogen plan seems quiet unrealistic right now. While yes this technology has been used in a limited number of rail vehicles, nothing so far has come close to providing the power a high capacity bilevel set would need to operate. I'm also not sure how one could fit Hydrogen tanks and fuel cells onto Bilevel cars anyway.

Batteries are in the same boat as Hydrogen. They've only been used in smaller applications, and probably aren't powerful enough to efficiently run a Bilevel EMU (although I do think you're right to question why they weren't studied by Metrolinx as well). I'm also curious how much weight Hydrogen fuel cells or batteries would add to a railcar, and the affects this might have.

In the future these technologies will probably mature, but until then Metrolinx should focus on electrifying the busiest GO routes, like the Lakeshore lines, where the costs of electrification can be justified.

I was just looking through my email conversation with Liz Sandals and the response from Bruce McCuaig at the time (2011) on battery powered EMUs, and Japan's success with them (is it applicable to Metrolinx? Doubtful).

I'll post excerpts of the responses later after editing if need be, as it flies in the face of what's now being stated by Metrolinx.

The Economist had a feature article at the time on it, limited time to search right now, but this makes the point:

Railway operators in rural Japan are replacing diesel-guzzling trains with new battery-powered rolling stock, taking advantage of the low-maintenance, environmentally friendly modern technology to cut costs and emissions.

East Japan Railway Co. began using battery-powered trains on the Oga Line in Akita Prefecture in March, following a similar change on the nonelectrified Karasuyama Line in Tochigi Prefecture. Kyushu Railway Co. has also been using battery-powered trains on a nonelectrified section of the Chikuho Line in Fukuoka Prefecture.

Battery-powered trains reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 60 percent compared with diesel engine trains and require lower operational costs because they have no transmissions or engines which are made up of myriad moving parts and require constant upkeep.

A high school student who commutes on the Oga Line said the battery-powered trains were “cleaner and quieter” than diesel trains. Riding on them is “more enjoyable,” she added.

Locals are hoping that the positive image of battery-powered trains will also attract more tourists to the region.

Of the Japan Railway group lines, which stretch about 20,000 km across the country, 40 percent are not electrified, meaning that on those sections, diesel or battery-powered rolling stock are required.

Battery-powered trains have their limits, however.

Given their current capacity, they can transport passengers only up to around 25 km on one charge. To run further, they need special charging stations.

Although the introduction of battery-powered trains costs less than electrifying a railway line, the length of each line is a consideration when deciding if the trains are suitable, said Masashi Tonosaki, an East Japan Railway official.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2...r-cost-eco-friendly-alternative/#.WcGK_Rdryew

It tied in with what Guelph was proposing to do at the time for a free recharging station for electric cars (Guelph had a case of the Green Overload at the time).

Here's the Guelph Mercury article on that: (Extracted from one of my communications with MPP Sandals that included McCuaig's response)

GUELPH — They’re sleek, cool and clean, and your city wants you to own one.

Officials with Guelph Hydro and the City of Guelph stated Wednesday the groundwork was being laid to make Guelph a “model city” for the electric car.

The city’s eco-conscious residents will be natural early adopters of battery-powered vehicles, Sandy Manners, a spokesperson for Guelph Hydro, said. “There’s a real opportunity for Guelph drivers to get out in front with electric cars.”

Next week, the local utility company will launch a survey of 200 residents and 25 fleet managers to determine how many people here want to purchase electric vehicles and how they would like to use them.]

https://www.guelphmercury.com/news-story/2763483-guelph-could-be-model-for-electric-cars/
My post continued:

If Guelph wants to do this for vehicles (frankly, to a questionable end as per delivering eco benefit) then surely the same resources could be well-used to recharge a hybridized DMU running between Guelph and Milton, as a showcase shuttle to demonstrate how clean DMUs can be?

The GJR is already featured in Guelph's latest consultant's study, and now I Google, I see the idea expressed prior:

[...][Given Guelph’s close proximity to major population centres, “higher order” transit services may be justified to link these urban areas, the work plan says. There is potential to use existing rail corridors to provide the foundation for a region-wide “higher order” transit service, it says.
The city-owned Guelph Junction Railway, currently used for freight and for tourist excursions, “is another corridor with potential for higher order transit service within Guelph and providing linkage from Guelph to Halton and the Milton GO service.”

While GO Transit has had great success since the 1970s as a commuter service to jobs near Toronto’s Union Station, the work plan says, planners are starting to explore the possibilities for the GO network to provide “higher order transit linkages for other origin-destination pairs.”

Satisfying the provincial Places to Grow strategy, which includes Guelph and Kitchener- Waterloo, “may well be the catalyst for the development of region-wide higher order transit services that provide greater self-containment and reduced reliance on automobile travel,” it says.][...]
http://guelph.ca/wp-content/uploads/TransitGrowthStrategy.pdf

(from email records)

The GJR would continue to be an excellent case site of where Metrolinx Hydrogen or Battery powered Multiple Units could be tested. Whether or not the slots between Guelph Junction and Milton are still open (GO Transit used to have a yard there for the Milton Line) is a good question. But as to how that pertains to Metrolinx' latest 'dodge' on the subject is interesting in light of McCuaig's reply at the time. I'll carefully redact the answer and post later.

 

[steveintoronto]

Japan actually ran a number of prototypes using hydrogen fuel cells for a couple of years before the iLint. Here's detail on that and more:

[...]
The iLint is powered by massive lithium ion batteries, which get their energy from a hydrogen fuel tank installed on the roof. On a full tank, which requires about 94 kg per car, the hydrail can operate for an entire full day, or travel up to 800 km. Its top speed is reportedly 140 km/h (87 mph).

Hydrogen-powered technology for trains has been around for just over a decade now, but rather than being used to ferry us humans around, full-hydrogen and hybrid versions have so far only been used in the freight industry.

As Christina Beck from The Christian Science Monitor reports, back in 2004, the Japanese Railway Research Institute developed a prototype fuel cell, and it went into use two years later. And last year, China started using hydrogen to power its trams in an effort to curb its severe air pollution problem.

The difference here is that Germany's Coradia iLint will be able to transport 300 passengers at a time, and will be the first fully hydrogen-powered train to complete run long-distance routes
[...]
Here’s a quick run-down of how the technology works (larger version here):

Alstom Coradia-iLint Decryption en OK by ahawkins8223 on Scribd
[...]

https://www.sciencealert.com/the-world-s-first-hydrogen-powered-train-is-coming-to-germany

 

[crs1026]

My theory about the Minister's sudden interest in Hydrogen power (which is definitely a conspiracy theory) is that the Liberals have already held their strategy sessions for their upcoming budget....they will have one last budget to introduce before the next election. The chosen strategy for the election budget would be to run a balanced budget - clearly the best position for a party to be in coming into an election.

How will they balance the books? By shelving a few things..... like GO electrification, and maybe the full RER plan.

It wouldn't surprise me if a prototype Hydrogen locomotive - in ML colours no less - turns up shortly before the next election just to prove that the whole thing is not smoke and mirrors. (which it is, but never mind).

If the Liberals win, the Hydrogen thing can be back-burnered. They can go back to deficit budgets and proceed to electrify, or not. If they lose, they have passed the challenge of funding full RER on to the Conservatives, while pointing out that they could have done better and would have done more.

Perhaps there is a real agenda to drive a green RER. It wouldn't be the first time that an Ontario government forced a new technology that wasn't ready into a transit project. But my theory is: this is about the Minister having lost a Cabinet battle and trying to keep electrification alive somehow to support his personal political agenda. I may be off base, but it's a particularly desperate Hail Mary all the same.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

My theory about the Minister's sudden interest in Hydrogen power (which is definitely a conspiracy theory) is that the Liberals have already held their strategy sessions for their upcoming budget....they will have one last budget to introduce before the next election. The chosen strategy for the election budget would be to run a balanced budget - clearly the best position for a party to be in coming into an election.

How will they balance the books? By shelving a few things..... like GO electrification, and maybe the full RER plan. [...]

Agreed on all points, I think almost everyone is in agreement on *trying* a prototype or two, but to use it as an excuse to do the obvious and decades past needed hard electrification?

Here's another conspicuous event to bolster your case (and I'm absolutely no fan of BBD, but this smacks of 'fall guy')
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tr...mbardier-for-latest-finch-west-lrt-delay.html

 

[rbt]

How will they balance the books? By shelving a few things..... like GO electrification, and maybe the full RER plan.

Capital expenses DO NOT appear in the budget that is balanced; interest payments on debt do but only in future years. Likewise, sales of assets (like Hydro One or Highway 407) also do not appear in that budget; revenues from capital sales go directly against debt (lowering interest payments in future years).

They cannot balance the books by fiddling with assets.

Harris ran the finance department under different rules. It was one of the first things McGuinty changed; moving toward a ruleset much much closer to the defacto standard for corporations.


The Hydrogen study is occurring for reasons other than impact to next years budget.

 

[crs1026]

Capital expenses DO NOT appear in the budget that is balanced; interest payments on debt do but only in future years. Likewise, sales of assets (like Hydro One or Highway 407) also do not appear in that budget; revenues from capital sales go directly against debt (lowering interest payments in future years).

They cannot balance the books by fiddling with assets.

That's no doubt true to the accountant's view of things. However the money for electrification will be there in the province's borrowing account somewhere. To the layperson, either the government borrows or it operates out of its revenues. Wynne has earned a reputation for spending. I suspect she knows that the public will not accept an election platform built on another round of spending. I predict we will see a platform stressing financial discipline. The spending list will have to be trimmed to deliver this optic. Just a theory, but there it is.

- Paul

 

[rbt]

That's no doubt true to the accountant's view of things. However the money for electrification will be there in the province's borrowing account somewhere.

Okay, if you want to include capital works (debt expansion) as part of the deficit, then they'll actually show a deficit of tens of billions next year. Electrification, particularly for a single year before the EA is even completed, isn't going to budge that by more than a couple percent.

 

[crs1026]

Okay, if you want to include capital works (debt expansion) as part of the deficit, then they'll actually show a deficit of tens of billions next year. Electrification, particularly for a single year before the EA is even completed, isn't going to budge that by more than a couple percent.

I doubt electrification will be singled out per se. My bet is that a whole long list of stuff gets deferred, transit being only one part of that. And while budgets are annualish, they show multiple years of spending going forward. It just happens that electrification spending ought to be ramping up right now. Cut the program, you get a small saving in this year's collumn but bigger savings in the out years and the cumulative data point - which is the single number that the pols and media are most likely to cite.

- Paul

 

[rbt]

I doubt electrification will be singled out per se. My bet is that a whole long list of stuff gets deferred, transit being only one part of that. And while budgets are annualish, they show multiple years of spending going forward. It just happens that electrification spending ought to be ramping up right now. Cut the program, you get a small saving in this year's collumn but bigger savings in the out years and the cumulative data point - which is the single number that the pols and media are most likely to cite.

- Paul

You can kill-off Metrolinx and everything they've got planned (both for GO and municipalities), cancel all transit capital related payments to municipalities (various SOGR/Renewal programs, Ottawa 2nd Phase, etc.), and it only reduces the debt accumulation by about 30% in the planned balanced budget (operating) scenario.

 

[Tuscani01]

My theory about the Minister's sudden interest in Hydrogen power (which is definitely a conspiracy theory) is that the Liberals have already held their strategy sessions for their upcoming budget....they will have one last budget to introduce before the next election. The chosen strategy for the election budget would be to run a balanced budget - clearly the best position for a party to be in coming into an election.

How will they balance the books? By shelving a few things..... like GO electrification, and maybe the full RER plan.


- Paul

No need for any of that. The economy has grown much faster than the projections used for the budget, and the Province has continually come in ahead of target for deficit reduction. There is nothing that would suggest they are scrambling to deliver a balanced budget at this time. I'm expecting a much larger surplus than initially projected for election year, which gives room to fund some of the big ticket items the Liberals have already announced.

 

[M II A II R II K]

If Lakeshore is only electrified to Aldershot then it would have to tag along a diesel car to turn on when the pantograph ends.

 

[cplchanb]

If Lakeshore is only electrified to Aldershot then it would have to tag along a diesel car to turn on when the pantograph ends.

They will probably put bi-mode diesel electric locos on that corridor then. I'm not sure if theres any bi-mode MUs in the N/A market currently, so an opportunity perhaps missed...