GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

[steveintoronto]

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean. Can you please explain what's special about Edmonton?

Garuda said: ↑

I'm curious, is the diameter of that tunnel large enough should the Crosstown Line become heavy rail for TR trains?

The tunnels yes, the stations no as the LRT is low floor while Toronto Rockets are not.

There's nothing "special" about Edmonton, that's the point. Running tunnel bore which is almost the same for many LRV in tunnel, is the same for high or low platform. Crossrail uses an even smaller bore, with high platform, albeit they are single deck trains. Full heavy mainline trains.

As an example, here's how close Crosstown's tunnels come to international heavy rail bore size, larger than any other running gauge in the UK (Eurotunnel trains can't travel beyond the Chunnel tracks):

[...]
These huge TBMs have been instrumental in creating much bigger tunnels for Crossrail, too. When the Jubilee line was extended in 1999, the new tunnels were 4.4 metres in diameter. By comparison, Crossrail is a giant at 6.2 metres in diameter, and only marginally smaller than the high-speed Channel Tunnel rail link (7.2 metres). [...]

http://www.wired.co.uk/article/exclusive-look-crossrail-tunnel

And here's an example of what RER can do:

[...]
(Paris double decker) Line A measures 107 km from end to end, which compares with 103 km for Crossrail. It includes 25 km of tunnel, while Crossrail will have 27 km. Both routes have seven inner city stations, and there are 46 stations on both systems. Line A tunnels are generally single-track bores with a diameter of 6·4 m, which is also intended to be the diameter for the Crossrail tunnels.

Train operations will also have similar service objectives. Line A in Paris now carries more than 60 000 passengers per hour in the morning peak on each track, similar to the forecast figure for central London. Platform widths are also expected to be similar, at around 6 m.

The maximum speed of Line A rolling stock is 120 km/h, with an average commercial speed in the city centre of 49 km/h. Maximum station dwell time in the centre is 50 sec. This and other design targets have been achieved through careful matching of the rolling stock and signalling. Sacem is able to achieve 2 min headways between trains, allowing operators to provide a consistent level of service at 27 trains an hour. Without Sacem, the interval between trains would be 2½ min. Crossrail has similar aspirations, with automatic train operation an option under consideration for the central tunnel section.[...]

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...Ms-cross-city-line-follows-the-rer-model.html

The Eglinton Crosstown tunnel will consist of side-by-side or twin tunnels. Each tunnel will be 6.75 metres internal diameter.

http://thecrosstown.ca/EastStationDesignUpdateTextSummary

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Let me take your question further, to intuitively answer where you're going with this: The Downtown Relief Line, for instance, could use the TBMs being used for Crosstown (once refitted) to bore a tunnel that could run RER trains in the future, and through-running onto the rest of the RER network later, and LRVs now until tunneling allows through connection to the extant GO lines.

The TBMs for the crosstown are being scrapped as they are removed it's even possible some of them could just be buried where they are. Ther are no plans to refurbish them for any other project as they are old and out of date now. If they do use TBMs for it they will likely do a single bore tunnel like they are planning for the Scarborough extension of the Bloor Danforth line.

 

[steveintoronto]

The TBMs for the crosstown are being scrapped as they are removed it's even possible some of them could just be buried where they are. Ther are no plans to refurbish them for any other project as they are old and out of date now. If they do use TBMs for it they will likely do a single bore tunnel like they are planning for the Scarborough extension of the Bloor Danforth line.

http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2017/03...emoving-crosstown-tunnel-borers#disqus_thread

The machines are still in great shape, two already extracted, two more to come. It's the heads that will need refurbishing if a buyer is found. But the problem is storing, shipping and re-jigging them for others needs. If Toronto were to re-use them, they'd do well for RER in tunnel or more LRT in tunnel. They may be a bit large for the tight turns planned for the Relief Line as the City proposes, but since Metrolinx is now in charge of the entire line, and building the northern half, plans may change since nothing has yet been decided. Only preliminaries of the route have so far and surface plans. Rolling stock and type have not been decided, contrary to some claims.

 

[Garuda]

The tunnels yes, the stations no as the LRT is low floor while Toronto Rockets are not.

That makes sense. Say 30 years down the line when capacity has reached a level that heavy rail is justified. The line would be shut down and as the tunnel is covered for heavy rail, so would the stations be with high level platforms.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Yeah, right. A lot of things have been said "time and time again". Keep saying it. It might actually come true some day.

When it's said by the TTC planning department then I think it's more likely than some random poster on a message board that think they know better than everyone else.

 

[steveintoronto]

When it's said by the TTC planning department then I think it's more likely than some random poster on a message board that think they know better than everyone else.

TTC isn't planning anything for the City right now. Did you not get the memo? They co-operate with City Planning, who themselves are now being made subsidiary to Metrolinx on the Relief Line. Since the Province is going to fund it, (if it ever is) then it should come as no surprise that they will do what's best for the *region*, not just Toronto. If they can stone two birds with one kill, and save costs in the big picture, they should and can do that. That means RER capable tunnels, not more of the trapped TTC gauge orthodox subway system.

Meantime, there's no excuse not to be aware of the many articles like this one:

Toronto's grand transit plan (maybe, hopefully)

Toronto has never been short on transit ambitions. How much of it will become reality is the eternal question here. With city staff working to prioritize projects and a renewed promise of funding, the next year in transit planning will be the most crucial yet. Oliver Moore reports on what's under way, what's approved – and what's still a pipe dream
[...]

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/ne...29194407/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&

Or this:

Toronto may take on 5 transit projects over 15 years, but only 1 is funded
Estimated cost of Scarborough subway extension now up to $3.16B
Toronto city planners revealed Tuesday their vision of how the city's transit network should evolve over the next 15 years, a vision that includes complex new subway, train and light rail lines, but — for the most part — they didn't spell out a way to pay for it all.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/city-planners-transit-plans-1.3646451

If you can find a reference/specification stating what the vehicle type is to be, then please provide it.

When the term "subway" is being used, it merely means "in tunnel", not "TTC subway vehicles". The idea has been discussed, so have hundreds of concepts for all sorts of transit projects. Some of them did actually happen....most didn't. And still aren't.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

TTC isn't planning anything for the City right now. Did you not get the memo? They co-operate with City Planning, who themselves are now being made subsidiary to Metrolinx on the Relief Line. Since the Province is going to fund it, (if it ever is) then it should come as no surprise that they will do what's best for the *region*, not just Toronto. If they can stone two birds with one kill, and save costs in the big picture, they should and can do that. That means RER capable tunnels, not more of the trapped TTC gauge orthodox subway system.

And this is the biggest problem with Transit in the city and the region too many cooks in the kitchen. The TTC and the city of Toronto should be planning the routes for Toronto, not some outside company that was created by the government that is allowed to force their own agenda onto the city. Metrolinx has no clue what it is doing beyond running Go transit, they think just because they have been given some authority by the Ontario Government they know everything about running public Transit. In the end, they don't really care. As I said before we are months away from opening the Subway extension into Vaugh and there has been no talk by anyone about how fares will be collected Metrolinx has not met with the TTC board since last March. Thye kept making excuses from not having a full-time CEO to whatever another one they want. We need to stop putting so much faith in this upstart company that wants to be a bully in the public transit sector of Ontario and force their grand plans in the area.

 

[steveintoronto]

The TTC and the city of Toronto should be planning the routes for Toronto, not some outside company that was created by the government that is allowed to force their own agenda onto the city.

The TTC lost their mandate to plan by being so incredibly lax with control and oversight. It was the City that took that away, not the Province.

And the answer is very simple for Toronto to make decisions and build their own subways: Raise the Funding. Now in all fairness, QP hasn't made that easy by the terms of the City of Toronto Act and the template that's based on, the Municipal Act. But I repeat: He Who Pays the Pipelayer (sic) Calls the Tune.

And I'll ask again: Where is it stated in specs or reference anywhere as to what type vehicles are going to run on the Relief Line? It's been talked about endlessly, the type of subway car, the yard, the connections to the GreenwoodYards, four car, mods needed for Greenwood Yard to get anything longer in without breaking a train everytime it enters, moving the present yarding to Canpa sidings to allow it, CBTC or not, yada, yada, yada...

Show me an official reference! Even the route remains contentious at this point, albeit the rough alignment has been touted. It's all just theory...

And the greatest return for the Province is to have an RER Toronto Downtown-Richmond Hill perhaps further that doesn't have the problems of the Don Valley, and can also run through the core of the City, relieve both the present subways and Union Station, and eventually run through west out the Georgetown Corridor.

Here's a little inspiration as to how that can work:

Even though the gauge is large enough for double-decker coaches as used on the Paris RER, for GO RER EMU use, it would be desirable to have a larger gauge. This one is less than Spadina extension in gauge, but will carry multiples the number of passengers, and much faster. Two minute headways are possible with the signalling and control equipment. At this time, the scheduled headways are 2.5 minutes through the central section (branches diverge each end).

I admit, it is a bit overwhelming for Torontonians, it being world class and leading edge and all...

[...]
Has anyone else pulled this off?

Crossrail’s nearest cousins are the RER, particularly, Line A in Paris and the S Bahns in places like Munich but there are lessons to learn and differences in operation. RER shows its vital to maintain station dwell times or you have to cut back on frequency to maintain headways. The S Bahn in Munich has holding platforms before the tunnelled section where trains wait before they go into the central tunnel. We are using a Siemens communications based train control signalling system which will be capable of delivering what Crossrail needs – which is 24 trains an hour through the centre. Technically the system should be able to do 30. [...]

http://www.infrastructure-intelligence.com/article/jan-2015/crossrail-time-think-about-train-service

Good Heavens no! It's impossible! (To Canadians...)

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

And I'll ask again: Where is it stated in specs or reference anywhere as to what type vehicles are going to run on the Relief Line? It's been talked about endlessly, the type of subway car, the yard, the connections to the Leslie Yards, yada, yada, yada...

Show me a reference!

Does anyone actually have any full-fledged plans yet on this project any way we know what both sides want but has anything actually been stated? Tne reason the TTC wants to connect its existing subway network because they have yard space already built and by connecting it to the existing network if they needd to they can move trains around if ther is a need for it. If it's a part of some other nrwtrok then where does the yard get bult how is it coneted to other sytemns if it is waht ahppens if ther is a problem. Do we just assume that the TTC will take care of running shutlle buse becuee the RER is down this is stuff that needs to be talked about but Metrlonx dosent want to do that they want to asemable a P3 that will do everything for them and all they do is hand out checks and cut fancy ribbons and make announcements like the government officials they are. Public Transit isn't all about that you can't just throw things around like Opera did with cras, You get a subway and you get an LRT. Metrolinx only is in it for the photo op and the good side of public transit they have no idea how the game is played so they want to make the rules so everyone has to play by them.

 

[steveintoronto]

Does anyone actually have any full-fledged plans yet on this project any way we know what both sides want but has anything actually been stated?

You still haven't produced a reference for your claim on (gist) "TR subway vehicles". And the initial plans are still being worked on. QP has funded the planning study, nothing more.

Don't like what the Province requires for their funding? Then go elsewhere...it's that simple.
{....sound of crickets chirping....}

Meantime, RER and electrification must start, and soon. And that (RER EMU) should be the standard for any Provincially funded massive projects. (Relief Line will be the costliest Toronto centred transit project so far) If ridership projections are initially insufficient to justify full RER vehicles, then run them with bi-modal powered LRVs (750 VDC and 25 kVAC) that can also run onto the other Metrolinx LRTs as head-on connections. Meantime, station platform lengths can be built to handle 12 coach RER consists, low level platform. Cheaper and easier to build. And you build them initially, not later. Even Crossrail, which will be running 10 coach trains, has planned for 12 car platforms. Once you build in tunnel, later enlargements become financially prohibitive. You do it up front.

Well....phhhh...in world class cities...

Electrification itself remains a theory in this province...except for what they had a century ago and long ago abandoned in the name of foresight...

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

You still haven't produced a reference for your claim on (gist) "TR subway vehicles". And the initial plans are still being worked on. QP has funded the planning study, nothing more.

Don't like what the Province requires for their funding? Then go elsewhere...it's that simple.
{....sound of crickets chirping....}

Meantime, RER and electrification must start, and soon. And that (RER EMU) should be the standard for any Provincially funded massive projects. If ridership projections are initially insufficient to justify full RER vehicles, then run them with bi-modal powered LRVs (750vDC and 25kVAC) that can also run onto the other Metrolinx LRTs as head-on connections.

Why do I need to provide proof that the TTC wants to use subway technology and not RER for the DRL? What proof do you have beyond speculation that it wouldn't be? I really don't care what it gets built with but I'm tired of people that keep saying that because it's a regional project it should be built with something else because TTC gauge is the wrong gauge and blah blah, etc.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Meantime, RER and electrification must start, and soon. And that (RER EMU) should be the standard for any Provincially funded massive projects. If ridership projections are initially insufficient to justify full RER vehicles, then run them with bi-modal powered LRVs (750vDC and 25kVAC) that can also run onto the other Metrolinx LRTs as head-on connections.

That I do agree with and it will be interesting to see how many of these projects remain on the table after the elections next year. Right now it's all planning and studies for the most part with only a few approved projects going ahead.

 

[steveintoronto]

Why do I need to provide proof that the TTC wants to use subway technology and not RER for the DRL? What proof do you have beyond speculation that it wouldn't be? I really don't care what it gets built with but I'm tired of people that keep saying that because it's a regional project it should be built with something else because TTC gauge is the wrong gauge and blah blah, etc.

It's been said time and time again that the DRL is not going to be RER or LRT, and it WILL be a Subway using TR.

EastYorkTTCFan and W. K. Lis like this

Well since you 'liked' this comment, Fan, then my point stands. What reference is there that states that? Anyone wishing to stand behind the point, then reference it.

The tunnel diameters on Eglinton are larger than subway.

Normally, yes, but for the Spadina Extension, it was a 6m bore. With the linings installed, depending on their thickness (depth) the loading gauge is very similar to Crosstown. It might come down to clearance on the curves rather than actual straight line bore as to allowable gauge.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Well since you 'liked' this comment, Fan, then my point stands. What reference is there that states that? Anyone wishing to stand behind the point, then reference it.

Andy Byford saying that there's no doubt that the mode will be a subway. This isn't concrete evidence, but it's why he believes to be "fact".

 

[steveintoronto]

Andy Byford saying that there's no doubt that the mode will be a subway. This isn't concrete evidence, but it's why he believes to be "fact".

So you'll kindly be referencing that then? Not to mention my girlfriend's hairdresser's aunt's cousin hearing that Andy was fired from Sydney. Is that true? It must be if they said so.