GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

[afransen]

I will go back to one of Reeses old videos where he said "Frequency is king". If you have a choice between frequency and peak service speed of your commute, choose frequency

The current rolling stock is not supportive of frequency, due to long dwell times required for boarding and alighting.

 

[afransen]

Bit ranty but In regards to Reece’s video, You’d assume that the closest comparable systems to GO post-electrification would be the systems of Australia and Germany. But station spacing would say otherwise with it staying typical of Loco-hauled North American Commuter services. You could easily halve our station spacing by building infill stations before even thinking bout getting EMU’s. Obviously thinking longterm, GO should be planning to order EMU’s once the necessary stations and infrastructure are built and the existing railcars are getting to retirement age.
(side note GO could lease out Amtrak’s ASC-64’s for relatively cheap as they are planning to replace them by 2030 with the new Siemens fleet as a quick way to electrify our services.)

Station Spacing comparison:

• Melbourne Metro: 450km with 250 stations - 1.8
• Berlin S-Bahn: 350km and 175 stations - 2
• Sydney Trains: 375km and 170 stations - 2.20
• Hamburg S-Bahn:175km and 70 stations - 2.5
• Frankfurt S-Bahn: 300km and 112 stations - 2.67
• Munich S-Bahn: 434km and 150 stations - 2.89
• Septa: 450km, 155 stations - 2.90*
• Metra: 785km and 241 stations - 3.25
• Caltrain: 125km, 31 stations - 4
• Brisbane Cityrail: 750km and 175 stations - 4.28
• LIRR: 512km (1100km) and 126 stations - 4.06 (8.73) - 6.39(av)*
• GO: 550km and 80 stations - 6.87
• MARC: 300km, 42 stations - 7.14
• Metro North: 620km (1275km) and 124 stations - 4.92 (10.28) - 7.6(av)*
• NJ Transit: 1615km, 166 stations - 9.72
• Metrolink: 880km, 67 stations - 13.13

*use both loco hauled and EMU trains in service with a much denser station stop spacing on the lines served by EMU’s*

Not sure if this is the same thing with the other systems, but GO's station spacing is exaggerated somewhat by including some regional service to outlying areas such as Barrie, London, Niagara Falls. Maybe a better measure would be median station spacing...

 

[reinventingthewheel]

Not sure if this is the same thing with the other systems, but GO's station spacing is exaggerated somewhat by including some regional service to outlying areas such as Barrie, London, Niagara Falls. Maybe a better measure would be median station spacing...

Agreed, also would be worthwhile to consider share of express services, which would of course have many fewer stop/starts. Safe to assume if GO made an order of EMUs, they wouldn’t see any use on express services.

 

[drum118]

The current rolling stock is not supportive of frequency, due to long dwell times required for boarding and alighting.

I found the dwell time for GO and RER in Europe almost the same. The only different between the 2 is the RER are shorter and faster departing stations as well slowing down later than GO.

Again people are caught up on speed which is great, but its the areas that needs to see service to attach ridership and not having a need for a car to get to a station.

You can have more than one type of service on the same line with different headways from the milk run to full express along with other type between them. You can use EMU's for express service

 

[11th]

I'd love to see them switch to EMUs, but wouldn't electric locomotives with shorter trains be an improvement in itself given that acceleration should be better, which is one of the biggest problems with the 12 car mammoths they usually run.

On the other hand, if the goal is to run shorter, frequent trains, a lot of the GO platforms are being severely overbuilt. A 12 car platform is around 300m? Even if they continue to run bilevels, could they at least add additional doors to the cars?

I am thinking that could be useful if there are different branches/service on the same platform.
Trains can stop at different parts of the platform.

 

[MrGoose]

Using the data from here I've Compiled a table of the different series and the average age of the bilevel coaches and it turns out that many of the coaches are actually very young.

The total size of the coach fleet is 942 coaches.

Only the Series I and Series II are older than 35 years old, thats 148 coaches.
789 coaches (84% of the fleet) are less than 35 years old,
608 coaches (64.5% of the fleet) are less than 20 years old.
517 coaches (55% of the fleet) is less than 15 years old.

Which is to say, that the Bilevel fleet is actually very young and has many decades left of service left in them.

Series	Number	Year produced
Series I	79	1978
Series II	55	1983
Series II Cab	14	1984
Series III	53	1989
Series III Cab	9	1989
Series IV	41	1990
Series IV cab	17	1990
Series V	56	1990
Series VI	22	2002
Series VII	61	2004-2007
Series VII Cab	8	2004-2007
Series VII Accessible	22	2004
Series VIII	157	2009-2014
Series VIII Accessible	15	2014
Series VIII Cab	7	2009-2013
Series 10	225	2016-2020
Series 10 Accessible	33	2017-2020
Series 10 Cab	80	2019

 

[ssiguy2]

I usually really like Reece's video but the last are the first times I have given them a thumbs down with the other obviously being his truly bizarre London video.

I really support the idea of EMUs but not at any price. He talks about spending $10 billion on GO so they might as well just spend heaps more for EMUs. What's another $10 billion between friends? If GO ended up selling all its bi-levels for pennies on the dollar there would be a huge backlash about wasting taxpayer's money and they would be right. The advantages of the EMUs are not as great in GO as they would be in city's with far shorter station spacing.

Despite how Ford maybe despised by urbanites, Ontario has never had such a transit friendly gov't and he is sinking tens of billion into transit but that doesn't mean it's a bottomless pit. There is only so much precious infrastructure funding to go around {hospitals, schools, roads} etc and that means setting priorities. If you spend that money on EMUs than that results in less money for rail upgrades, new stations, expanding service areas, or grade separations. $10 billion would go a long way to building the freight "missing link" so Toronto could get it's hands on the crucial MId-Town corridor which would be a game changer.

Bi-levels do indeed have drawback and especially in entry/exit and accessibility but these can be fixed for pennies on the dollar of what buying a whole new fleet of EMUs would cost. Current coaches could be modified given wider doors and larger entry/exit a la Sydney or they could buy just some "single level connecting cars a la Dallas Dart and Paris RER.

 

[Hairball]

Bi-levels do indeed have drawback and especially in entry/exit and accessibility but these can be fixed for pennies on the dollar of what buying a whole new fleet of EMUs would cost. Current coaches could be modified given wider doors and larger entry/exit a la Sydney or they could buy just some "single level connecting cars a la Dallas Dart and Paris RER.

Also if they ever implement level boarding, that would definitely be a help.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Broadly speaking I really do have to agree with the general sentiment that demanding EMUs NOW seems to be making the perfect the enemy of the good.

I do think that we should make them a very real consideration, plan for eventual implementation of them on a large scale and maybe even place a small order early on as a proof of concept and competency builder (I really don't see any version of UPX working well with locomotive hauled stock anyway, and that is precisely the degree of EMUs now that I probably CAN get on board with).

I would, however, be asking some very pointed question if there was any major attempt to further extend the bi-level fleet. Perhaps adding cab cars for more frequent service with smaller trains and the existing coaches would be acceptable, but while I don't see a need to initiate any wholesale replacement, the advantages of EMUs are such that further fleet growth probably should use them.

 

[afransen]

Won't we need to consider new rolling stock if we're running 3x as many services?

 

[generalcanada]

Won't we need to consider new rolling stock if we're running 3x as many services?

yea? thats why theyre buying new electric locos.
Interestingly enough while service levels and frequency will increase, I think the use of 4-6 maybe even 8 car train maximums will allow us to be more than enough rolling stock.
Effectively, more service, smaller trains, gives us all we need.
maybe we buy a few more cars, but not too many

 

[Bureaucromancer]

yea? thats why theyre buying new electric locos.
Interestingly enough while service levels and frequency will increase, I think the use of 4-6 maybe even 8 car train maximums will allow us to be more than enough rolling stock.
Effectively, more service, smaller trains, gives us all we need.
maybe we buy a few more cars, but not too many

Also don't forget that full day service means much higher fleet utilization. There are still an awful lot of services that leave sets sitting near a terminal all day in the middle of a single round trip.

 

[Andy_in_Toronto]

Here in south west of Germany bi-level cars are pulled or pushed by ordinary Bombardier Traxx - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alstom_Traxx

You can ride the regional express on the famous

Black Forest Railway (Baden) - https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarzwaldbahn_(Baden)​

Being resident of Toronto and the Black Forest area I have a feeling what DB as the Metrolinx GO train consultants is proposing. Definitely no EMU’s. See the photos below!

 

[drum118]

Here in south west of Germany bi-level cars a pull or pushed my ordinary Bombardier Traxx - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alstom_Traxx

You can ride the regional express on the famous

Black Forest Railway (Baden) - https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarzwaldbahn_(Baden)​

Being resident of Toronto and the Black Forest area I have a feeling what DB as the Metrolinx GO train consultants is proposing. Definitely no EMU’s. See the photos below!

View attachment 513281

View attachment 513282

I can show you the same thing for Frankfurt, Hamburg and other places under DB control as well showing EMU's in those same places. DB is not a one fit all, but use equipment that is needed for those area.

Zurich was the first place I saw in 2012 using this setup with 8 cars on the trains for most local routes. Longer intercity trains were 2 sets of 8 or more cars. I also saw 3 and 5 sections EMU's running in 2-4 car sets including Germany

You will also find single level car trains like this as well EMU's, let along DMU's.

There is a movement in Europe at this time to upgrade lines from diesel to electric as well lines that haven't seen rail service in 50 years.

Until a GO line or 2 has been partly electrify, we will continue to see what we see today. Once that line or 2 is electrify, we will see power equipment to match the line need using both types of powers.

As more lines are brought on line as been electrify as well increase in quality of service, we should see EMU;s starting to show up with the need for more equipment.

The current 12 car train, will become 6 car trains as quality of service increase, but will require a extra locomotive and cab car.

Based on the number of Locomotives in the fleet including the 13 unknown ones out for tender, not enough power to meet the full built out of the systems as well cab cars that includes the rebuilt ones

 

[jmi22]

I usually really like Reece's video but the last are the first times I have given them a thumbs down with the other obviously being his truly bizarre London video.

I really support the idea of EMUs but not at any price. He talks about spending $10 billion on GO so they might as well just spend heaps more for EMUs. What's another $10 billion between friends? If GO ended up selling all its bi-levels for pennies on the dollar there would be a huge backlash about wasting taxpayer's money and they would be right. The advantages of the EMUs are not as great in GO as they would be in city's with far shorter station spacing.

Despite how Ford maybe despised by urbanites, Ontario has never had such a transit friendly gov't and he is sinking tens of billion into transit but that doesn't mean it's a bottomless pit. There is only so much precious infrastructure funding to go around {hospitals, schools, roads} etc and that means setting priorities. If you spend that money on EMUs than that results in less money for rail upgrades, new stations, expanding service areas, or grade separations. $10 billion would go a long way to building the freight "missing link" so Toronto could get it's hands on the crucial MId-Town corridor which would be a game changer.

Bi-levels do indeed have drawback and especially in entry/exit and accessibility but these can be fixed for pennies on the dollar of what buying a whole new fleet of EMUs would cost. Current coaches could be modified given wider doors and larger entry/exit a la Sydney or they could buy just some "single level connecting cars a la Dallas Dart and Paris RER.

what was bizarre about the london video?