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GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

It was stated here on the board a while ago, but CP was will to cooperate as long as Metrolinx brought them a plan. They have not yet.

I'm not disputing what you heard, but at a GO electrification meeting in the fall of 2016 I went to, a GO staff member said the reason CP didn't want to participate is because they didn't want to operating their trains under CN's control in the York Sub. It sounded like they didn't want to give up control/flexibility. So I'm not sure, because I'm certainly not an expert, if part of CP seeing a 'plan' is Metrolinx providing assurances for how the CN York Sub would work.
 
I'm not disputing what you heard, but at a GO electrification meeting in the fall of 2016 I went to, a GO staff member said the reason CP didn't want to participate is because they didn't want to operating their trains under CN's control in the York Sub. It sounded like they didn't want to give up control/flexibility. So I'm not sure, because I'm certainly not an expert, if part of CP seeing a 'plan' is Metrolinx providing assurances for how the CN York Sub would work.
So that means paying an extra 2.3 billion or so for double tracking eh? Man this thing keeps going in circles.
 
So that means paying an extra 2.3 billion or so for double tracking eh? Man this thing keeps going in circles.

We are all speculating on where this money is going, when the press announcements were their usual degree of vague on that point.

If the money is indeed going into track on the CN line west of Bramalea - which I'm not convinced of, yet - then it means the Bypass is not happening.

It's plausible that the money is going to add track east of Mount Pleasant, as the news release indicates, but without impacting the CN-owned segment that the bypass is aimed at winning. We just don't know.

Hopefully things get clearer.

- Paul
 
We are all speculating on where this money is going, when the press announcements were their usual degree of vague on that point.

- Paul
I don't think it was vague at all....the federal gov't announced that they are contributing $1.9B to GO Transit's ReR plan.....GO / Metrolinx/Ontario did not announce any change to that ReR plan.....so if you dig out the GO ReR plan, that is what is being built.....no?
 
I don't think it was vague at all....the federal gov't announced that they are contributing $1.9B to GO Transit's ReR plan.....GO / Metrolinx/Ontario did not announce any change to that ReR plan.....so if you dig out the GO ReR plan, that is what is being built.....no?

True, it goes in the kitty for RER, and RER hasn't changed, it pays for some part of that..... it was the discussion about what exactly the $753M allotted to the Kitchener line that I was referring to. All we know is that GO has money to move ahead ...... with something.

- Paul
 
True, it goes in the kitty for RER, and RER hasn't changed, it pays for some part of that..... it was the discussion about what exactly the $753M allotted to the Kitchener line that I was referring to. All we know is that GO has money to move ahead ...... with something.

- Paul
Yes, something that they had, to some extent, already designed/planned before any notion of a bypass came along.

I really am wondering if this announcement had something to do with the date. These $1.9B are coming from the New Building Canada Fund set up by the previous government......does anyone know, did that fund have an expiry date? Seems funny (or just wildly coincidental) that this surprise announcement (just days after a budget which did not mention this) comes on the last day of the government's fiscal year.

EDIT looked it up...it is just a coincidence...... projects under this fund don't have to be identified until April 1, 2018....so the answer to my question is a) yes there is an expiry but, b) no it is not today it is 1 year from today.
 
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I'm not disputing what you heard, but at a GO electrification meeting in the fall of 2016 I went to, a GO staff member said the reason CP didn't want to participate is because they didn't want to operating their trains under CN's control in the York Sub. It sounded like they didn't want to give up control/flexibility. So I'm not sure, because I'm certainly not an expert, if part of CP seeing a 'plan' is Metrolinx providing assurances for how the CN York Sub would work.
And that in itself might just be a cover story for actual discussions going on behind closed doors. The Link has so many ramifications and possible trade-offs, each one to be valuated and risk assessed, let alone nominal book value, that the discussions will be very complex. The most likely outcome I see is a stand-alone entity, with or without various government and/or rail company share, but charted to have Federal Powers under the various pertaining regulating acts, or created as an Act of its own to relegate a lot of the disputes. One of the models for this would be Union Station, which was established under a Federal Act, but there are many other examples. Needless to say, TTR still exists to this day, long after the railways divested direct ownership of Union Station. I'd call that a success.
So that means paying an extra 2.3 billion or so for double tracking eh? Man this thing keeps going in circles.
I'm also impatient, but don't panic now, I see greater opportunity to get the *best* resolution of this mess than at any other time previously in recent memory.l

If the money is indeed going into track on the CN line west of Bramalea - which I'm not convinced of, yet - then it means the Bypass is not happening.
Agreed, that's the inverse logic of seeing construction to avoid freight on the lines affected, rather than re-routing freight to begin with. Every dollar invested to do that is money in the railway companies' pockets, as (in this case Metrolinx) the RoW isn't owned by the passenger carrier. It's a the worst of options.

It's plausible that the money is going to add track east of Mount Pleasant, as the news release indicates, but without impacting the CN-owned segment that the bypass is aimed at winning. We just don't know.
Agreed again, and even if The Link is built, that investment is still realized, and ostensibly, since most of that stretch is already roughed-in or more, it can/will happen within two years. Even if started today, The Link will take probably four.

These $1.9B are coming from the New Building Canada Fund set up by the previous government......does anyone know, did that fund have an expiry date?
The *departmental structure* was set up in 2014, the *funding* was appropriated in the Budget last year. It hasn't even been fully itemized, aimed and disbursed yet. The reason we're getting this string of announcements is because the Cabinet is on the road announcing who gets 'prizes'. The book value of the program was touted (IIRC) to extend over eleven years. That can, of course, be cancelled by a later regime, but unlikely to be so.

TOFan has me on his "ignore list" because he doesn't like being challenged on his claims. So be it, but the answer has been in the public realm for over a year.

Here's a good place to start:
The $125-billion question
Infrastructure spending is shaping up to be the Liberals’ biggest single policy response to the dramatic changes in the Canadian economy.
Bill Curry explains the nuts and bolts of the impending program. Meanwhile, Globe bureaus across the country speak with city mayors about their most important infrastructure projects, how much they’ll cost and what the short and long-term payoffs might be

Staff

The Globe and Mail Last updated: Monday, Mar. 21, 2016 11:18AM EDT

[...]
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...in-infrastructure-spendinggo/article28228477/
 
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We are all speculating on where this money is going, when the press announcements were their usual degree of vague on that point.

If the money is indeed going into track on the CN line west of Bramalea - which I'm not convinced of, yet - then it means the Bypass is not happening.

It's plausible that the money is going to add track east of Mount Pleasant, as the news release indicates, but without impacting the CN-owned segment that the bypass is aimed at winning. We just don't know.

Hopefully things get clearer.

- Paul
I'm also impatient, but don't panic now, I see greater opportunity to get the *best* resolution of this mess than at any other time previously in recent memory.l
Fair enough, I just wish these guys would be clear on what is happening. I would like to see all the tracks upgraded including Richmond Hill as well.
 
Fair enough, I just wish these guys would be clear on what is happening.
It's far from a satisfying answer, but consider this: If this is to be done properly, and a huge chunk of taxpayer money is going to go into this, far better that they "measure twice, and cut once". That can be an excuse, a very convenient one, but there are tangible signs of very real progress.

Exhibit A: Bruce McCuaig
http://www.on-sitemag.com/construct...w-role-canada-infrastructure-bank/1003956316/
 
It's far from a satisfying answer, but consider this: If this is to be done properly, and a huge chunk of taxpayer money is going to go into this, far better that they "measure twice, and cut once". That can be an excuse, a very convenient one, but there are tangible signs of very real progress.

Exhibit A: Bruce McCuaig
http://www.on-sitemag.com/construct...w-role-canada-infrastructure-bank/1003956316/
This is good, but GO expansion has been in the works since the early 2000's, right? We should see results soon.
 
This is good, but GO expansion has been in the works since the early 2000's, right? We should see results soon.
Obviously I can't give a definitive answer to an open question, but my feeling is that McCuaig, and I've been a critic of the man on a number of issues, felt it was "time to move on" quite probably due to being frustrated on points exactly as you describe. To realize the vision Queen's Park has been expounding for decades, other than in increments, McCuaig was stymied. He now has a chance to be part of something that really does affect change.

The following also must have rubbed him the wrong way:
Transportation minister won’t say if he pushed for GO station in his riding
$100 million Kirby station in Vaughan will encourage more people to drive, Metrolinx report says.
By Ben SpurrTransportation Reporter
Tues., March 28, 2017
Transportation Minister Steven Del Duca wouldn’t declare whether he advocated for Metrolinx to approve a new $100-million GO Transit station in his riding, saying only that he has a “collaborative relationship” with the transit agency and that he believes the stop is justified by sound planning.

As the Star reported Monday, last June the Metrolinx board approved a new station in Vaughan at Kirby Rd., despite a government analysis that found adding the stop on the Barrie line would induce more people to drive than take transit and would have negative economic and environmental impacts.

Following his remarks at an unrelated news conference Tuesday morning, a reporter asked Del Duca whether he played a role in advocating for Kirby station.

“As minister of transportation there’s a collaborative relationship that exists between my ministry and the agency responsible for delivering the transit that we need in this region,” said Del Duca, who has represented Vaughan for the Ontario Liberals since 2012.

Asked whether that meant he did advocate for the stop, Del Duca said “That’s the answer that it is. There’s a collaborative relationship.”[...]
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...f-he-pushed-for-go-station-in-his-riding.html

I'm going to give McCuaig the benefit of the doubt on this: That was the straw that snapped his back, or at least, it was sweet serendipity as he waltzed out the door to greener pastures at the Infra/Investment Bank. I wouldn't have been able to stop myself saying something on the way out. McCuaig is a career mandarin, however, and ostensibly professional, and knows he's a Liberal of Good Standing as long as he keeps his composure. GO Transit *is* standing still, if not going backwards in some instances, litany of announcements besides. And it's incredibly frustrating. Most of the problems are due to political interference.

With McCuaig's move, it gives him, and the Feds a chance to underwrite and chaperone much greater progress to affect real change. Am I being idealistic? Perhaps, but I'm also hopeful that finally, again (this has historic roots of nation-building) that projects of worth and vision can be undertaken with the government and investors together. My proof? Other nations well ahead of us on exactly this. Australia immediately comes to mind. And their commuter rail systems are generations ahead of us. It's not like the Infrastructure/Investment Bank is a unique idea. Canada has a lot of successful models to emulate. The trick is to get it right for our own needs.

Edit to Add: This does overlap other strings, but the subject is hot in this one right now, and completely relevant:
Budget 2016: $5b infrastructure fund to be used to fund public transport projects
By Stephen Dziedzic and Francis Keany
Updated 1 May 2016, 7:56pm

Photo: The Melbourne Metro and Sydney Metro rail projects will share in half the funding. (ABC News: Margaret Burin)
Map: Australia
The Federal Government will use a $5 billion fund to pay for major public transport projects in tomorrow's federal budget.

The Melbourne Metro and Sydney Metro rail projects will share in half the funding, which will be made available through the Federal Government's Asset Recycling Initiative.

The fund was first established under the Abbott Government, but initially excluded public transport schemes.

New South Wales will receive $2.19 billion, while Victoria will get $2.4 billion.

The Asset Recycling Initiative provides funding for transport proposals, but only if the state and territory governments privatise assets to fund a share of the proposal.

State-federal funding is likely to come from the privatisation of the NSW electricity network and the Port of Melbourne. [...]
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-02/$5b-plan-in-budget-to-fund-public-transport-projects/7374772
December 17 2015
Australia's asset sales become global model, luring $35b from Canada alone
Government to use sale of Port of Melbourne lease to fund transport infrastructure projects
Updated 5 Mar 2014, 3:53am

The Victorian Government will sell the lease on the Port of Melbourne to fund future infrastructure projects.

The sale would raise billions of dollars to fund transport infrastructure projects such as the East West Link tunnel. [...]
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-...lease-sale-to-fund-transport-projects/5299290

Why big pension funds love Australian ports
Julius Melnitzer | March 21, 2017

Canadian pension plans’ love affair with foreign ports, particularly those in Australia but extending also to the United Kingdom and the Persian Gulf region, shows no signs of abating, with only an overheated market and a potential shortage of supply standing as roadblocks on the horizon.

But with Canada’s federal government looking for pension funds to invest in homegrown infrastructure, what do their experiences with foreign ports signal about the types of projects that are likely to attract their interest?

A succession of deals

“Some of the deals done by Canadian investors recently are hallmark deals of which anyone involved in infrastructure is aware,” says Brandon Prater, co-head of private infrastructure at Partners Group AG, a global private markets investment manager whose Australian involvement includes light-rail transit in Sydney and a project to deliver new rolling stock in Melbourne. [...]
http://www.benefitscanada.com/news/why-big-pension-funds-love-australian-ports-95151

Time to change the channel, folks...and realize it's time to consider selling some assets (with provisos) like airports and shipping ports, and yes, electrical grids, and putting it into far more urgently needed infrastructure investments, like rail and commuter systems.
 
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We are all speculating on where this money is going, when the press announcements were their usual degree of vague on that point.

If the money is indeed going into track on the CN line west of Bramalea - which I'm not convinced of, yet - then it means the Bypass is not happening.

It's plausible that the money is going to add track east of Mount Pleasant, as the news release indicates, but without impacting the CN-owned segment that the bypass is aimed at winning. We just don't know.

Hopefully things get clearer.

- Paul

It could just be track improvements that would be needed for RER-level service regardless of if the Missing Link happens or not. Chances are a 3rd track would be needed to support some kind of express service to/from Kitchener, since 2 tracks would be needed just for local service.
 
Edit to Add: This does overlap other strings, but the subject is hot in this one right now, and completely relevant:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-02/$5b-plan-in-budget-to-fund-public-transport-projects/7374772


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-...lease-sale-to-fund-transport-projects/5299290


http://www.benefitscanada.com/news/why-big-pension-funds-love-australian-ports-95151

Time to change the channel, folks...and realize it's time to consider selling some assets (with provisos) like airports and shipping ports, and yes, electrical grids, and putting it into far more urgently needed infrastructure investments, like rail and commuter systems.

Oh lordy, you haven't been following the latest news on Australia's supposed 'energy crisis' have you? Flogging off the 'poles and wires' was done about 15-20 years ago here in Victoria and governments of both persuasions are starting to regret it.

Generation, distribution and retailing is all in private hands in most states in Australia and many of these companies have got a slice of the pie at each level - avoid, avoid like the plague!

Airports is a different story however and far easily managed with a proper 'what you can do, what you must do, what you mustn't do' type privatisation agreement.

_________

Is there any power generation project linked to the mass electrification of the GO network? I'm unfamiliar how the TTC buys its electricity to power services, but this electrification project on GO would be a golden opportunity to pool the collective (and easily forecastable) need for power in rail transport and put a tender out to build new renewable generation + storage to allow all electrified rail networks in Ontario to run on 100% renewable energy.
 
Oh lordy, you haven't been following the latest news on Australia's supposed 'energy crisis' have you?
I have actually, although I don't read the Ozzie Press as much as I used to. (The Review, SMH, Melbourne Age, etc) The Financial Times has had good coverage of your situation, but it doesn't change my points as posted one iota. That situation is more a state one, as it is provincial here. The lack of a national electrical grid policy is as much a fault here as there. But that's a whole other subject apart from what is being discussed. The UK is having similar electrical system shortcomings, and Crossrail stands as much as ever as an excellent model, both in engineering and in oversight governance in spite of electrical delivery and pricing problems.

One of *many* articles on the model for others to consider:
https://www.apm.org.uk/news/crossrail-lessons-in-governance/

Is there any power generation project linked to the mass electrification of the GO network?
No, and there doesn't need to be. Delivery capacity from distribution feeders is projected to be more than adequate. Power shortage per-se is not a present problem, pricing is, but that's a whole other subject.
http://www.gotransit.com/electrification/en/docs/Electrification TPAP Consultation FAQs EN.pdf
 
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