GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I believe the main issues are Metrolinx not fully owning the line, and extensive work needing to be done along the Don Valley portion of the line especially if electrification is to happen but even if not.

Same as Milton then. Sounds like billions...

 

[crs1026]

Same as Milton then. Sounds like billions...

The Don Valley is a huge complication. The other big need is a over/underpass at the CN crossing at Doncaster, just like Snider, Hagerman, West Toronto, and (most comparable, given the proximity to neighbourhoods) Davenport.

- Paul

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The Don Valley is a huge complication. The other big need is a over/underpass at the CN crossing at Doncaster, just like Snider, Hagerman, West Toronto, and (most comparable, given the proximity to neighbourhoods) Davenport.

- Paul

Similar to the bypass at the humber river for Milton. Why are these crossings so expensive?

 

[robmausser]

Similar to the bypass at the humber river for Milton. Why are these crossings so expensive?

This is why http://www.bnn.ca/ontario-auditor-accuses-cn-rail-cp-rail-of-overcharging-transit-agency-1.620439

 

[crs1026]

Similar to the bypass at the humber river for Milton. Why are these crossings so expensive?

Ground water, gradients, and space constraints. And, to some degree, the fact they are bounded by existing subdivisions as opposed to industrial or commercial properties.

The freight line has to be kept relatively level, because long trains don't like steep grades. That's why CP still crosses Weston at grade, despite that nice new tunnel. Commuter line can be a little steeper, but only to a degree.

Highways are more complex to design than railway structures (lighting, drainage, barrier protection, signage, ramps, sightlines, etc) but building the 407 out there in open farmland gives you lots of room to work. Excavating in a 30-meter wide trough with peoples' backyards on either side is a bit more complicated.

- Paul

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

This is why http://www.bnn.ca/ontario-auditor-accuses-cn-rail-cp-rail-of-overcharging-transit-agency-1.620439

Yikes. Metrolinx needs a PR campaign to improve its position.

Ground water, gradients, and space constraints. And, to some degree, the fact they are bounded by existing subdivisions as opposed to industrial or commercial properties.

The freight line has to be kept relatively level, because long trains don't like steep grades. That's why CP still crosses Weston at grade, despite that nice new tunnel. Commuter line can be a little steeper, but only to a degree.

Highways are more complex to design than railway structures (lighting, drainage, barrier protection, signage, ramps, sightlines, etc) but building the 407 out there in open farmland gives you lots of room to work. Excavating in a 30-meter wide trough with peoples' backyards on either side is a bit more complicated.

- Paul

I see, so it's lots of construction in a restricted place. It's pretty hard to add tracks in tight places. This is why the missing link is critical imo. Or maybe both sides need to be more flexible? Tough situation here.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

I believe the main issues are Metrolinx not fully owning the line, and extensive work needing to be done along the Don Valley portion of the line especially if electrification is to happen but even if not.

The Don Valley is a huge complication. The other big need is a over/underpass at the CN crossing at Doncaster, just like Snider, Hagerman, West Toronto, and (most comparable, given the proximity to neighbourhoods) Davenport.

- Paul

I think the Don Valley is a minor complication given that the Don Branch is the most likely alternative route. The real complication will be a) crossing the North Toronto sub (with or without future CP freight traffic), and b) re-activating the Leaside Spur (connecting the CP North Toronto and CN Bala subs), which will inevitably create huge local opposition.

But Metrolinx won't make this a priority soon, because solving those challenges isn't justified by demand. They've got bigger fish to fry, and the Richmond Hill Line has the least ridership of all GO corridors; 10,000 on an average weekday as of 2014 (5% of all rail ridership).

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I think the Don Valley is a minor complication given that the Don Branch is the most likely alternative route. The real complication will be a) crossing the North Toronto sub (with or without future CP freight traffic), and b) re-activating the Leaside Spur (connecting the CP North Toronto and CN Bala subs), which will inevitably create huge local opposition.

But Metrolinx won't make this a priority soon, because solving those challenges isn't justified by demand. They've got bigger fish to fry, and the Richmond Hill Line has the least ridership of all GO corridors; 10,000 on an average weekday as of 2014 (5% of all rail ridership).

Isn't that due to low service? If they had more service, would there not be more ridership?

 

[TOareaFan]

Isn't that due to low service? If they had more service, would there not be more ridership?

A discussion I have had with many people (including GO Transit) about all the lines that are not Lakeshore. They all pale in comparison to Lakeshore but that has to have something to do with service.......I have very little doubt that if (put dream cap on here) every line currently had exactly the same service that the Lakeshores have now we would observe two things:

• The ridership on the Lakeshore lines would drop
• Milton corridor would likely have the highest ridership by a decent margin.

As it stands now, the ridership figures are meaningless in comparing the lines.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

A discussion I have had with many people (including GO Transit) about all the lines that are not Lakeshore. They all pale in comparison to Lakeshore but that has to have something to do with service.......I have very little doubt that if (put dream cap on here) every line currently had exactly the same service that the Lakeshores have now we would observe two things:

• The ridership on the Lakeshore lines would drop
• Milton corridor would likely have the highest ridership by a decent margin.

As it stands now, the ridership figures are meaningless in comparing the lines.

I agree. I think service caps don't make for a fair comparison. I think Milton and even Brampton would be higher then lakeshore east if the service was there and if it was advertised properly.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

A discussion I have had with many people (including GO Transit) about all the lines that are not Lakeshore. They all pale in comparison to Lakeshore but that has to have something to do with service.......I have very little doubt that if (put dream cap on here) every line currently had exactly the same service that the Lakeshores have now we would observe two things:

• The ridership on the Lakeshore lines would drop
• Milton corridor would likely have the highest ridership by a decent margin.

As it stands now, the ridership figures are meaningless in comparing the lines.

Somewhat unfair to compare the Lakeshore lines, I agree, but don't forget that most trips are within the peak periods. At least 2014 is a good proxy of regional rail demand on the other 5 lines since they are only operating during peak periods; doesn't include the Kitchener's all-day service.

The biggest drawback is that Richmond Hill IS in the Don Valley. That puts it away from any population until Don Mills north of Lawrence, and away from any significant density until the 401, where the station there is away from the major intersecting east-west municipal arterial road (Sheppard) and not well integated into the local rapid transit line.

From there, opportunities exist at Richmond Hill Centre (Langstaff) and maybe Major Mack (Richmond Hill). Otherwise, the two stations extending to the north are in a rural greenbelt abyss. Why prioritize that over at least two north running lines that intersect established settlements in the greenbelt to the west (Barrie: King City, Aurora, Newmarket, Bradford West Gwillimbury, Barrie) and east (Stouffville: Stouffville and Uxbridge), let along the Milton and Kitchener lines intersecting even bigger muncipalities?

 

[TOareaFan]

Somewhat unfair to compare the Lakeshore lines, I agree, but don't forget that most trips are within the peak periods. At least 2014 is a good proxy of regional rail demand on the other 5 lines since they are only operating during peak periods; doesn't include the Kitchener's all-day service.

gotta call this out a wee bit.......Lakeshore, since day 1, has had the advantage of off peak trains....even when they were just hourly it gave riders the comfort of knowing that there was no severe penalty if you missed the last peak service train home.....no other line has had that...and that always affected usage. I have known hundreds of people who would never use the GO train regularly because of not wanting to miss that last train on our line and I know lots of people who live closer to the Milton line who for years have driven south to the Lakeshore line in the morning for their commutes....the value of being able to get home at night is pretty high.

Similarly, since the off peak 30 minute service came in there are loads and loads of people who drive to Lakeshore lines on weekends (I guess they always did but it is far more obvious now) to get to whatever weekend activity they have in the city......take a wander around the parking lots and look at where the cars were purchased.....it is a good indicator that the people who used those cars to get to the GO do not live in neighbourhoods near lakeshore stations.

The uneven introduction and delivery of service may have good reason(s) but ridership on Lakeshore has always been enhanced by higher service levels and evening/weekend trains.

Even today as we look at the roll out of off peak on the KW service....does anyone think that the lack of evening trains is not hurting usage of the mid day trains? Do we really think that someone thinking of using that 3:52 EB train out of Mt. Pleasant is not deterred by the fact that there are no evening trains to make a logical return trip?

Service level impacts ridership...very simple....and the Lakeshores have always had an unnatural (again, perhaps explainable) service advantage in building their ridership.

 

[TOareaFan]

I agree. I think service caps don't make for a fair comparison. I think Milton and even Brampton would be higher then lakeshore east if the service was there and if it was advertised properly.

Certainly if we are to believe that population and density drive ridership....then, service levels being equal, that should be the case.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Somewhat unfair to compare the Lakeshore lines, I agree, but don't forget that most trips are within the peak periods. At least 2014 is a good proxy of regional rail demand on the other 5 lines since they are only operating during peak periods; doesn't include the Kitchener's all-day service.

The biggest drawback is that Richmond Hill IS in the Don Valley. That puts it away from any population until Don Mills north of Lawrence, and away from any significant density until the 401, where the station there is away from the major intersecting east-west municipal arterial road (Sheppard) and not well integated into the local rapid transit line.

From there, opportunities exist at Richmond Hill Centre (Langstaff) and maybe Major Mack (Richmond Hill). Otherwise, the two stations extending to the north are in a rural greenbelt abyss. Why prioritize that over at least two north running lines that intersect established settlements in the greenbelt to the west (Barrie: King City, Aurora, Newmarket, Bradford West Gwillimbury, Barrie) and east (Stouffville: Stouffville and Uxbridge), let along the Milton and Kitchener lines intersecting even bigger muncipalities?

Okay, in fairness what exact work needs to be done on Milton? I assume the bypass on the humber river and 2 extra tracks to Milton. Or the "missing link"! Just curious, where exactly is the location on the Milton line where the bypass needs to be?

gotta call this out a wee bit.......Lakeshore, since day 1, has had the advantage of off peak trains....even when they were just hourly it gave riders the comfort of knowing that there was no severe penalty if you missed the last peak service train home.....no other line has had that...and that always affected usage. I have known hundreds of people who would never use the GO train regularly because of not wanting to miss that last train on our line and I know lots of people who live closer to the Milton line who for years have driven south to the Lakeshore line in the morning for their commutes....the value of being able to get home at night is pretty high.

Similarly, since the off peak 30 minute service came in there are loads and loads of people who drive to Lakeshore lines on weekends (I guess they always did but it is far more obvious now) to get to whatever weekend activity they have in the city......take a wander around the parking lots and look at where the cars were purchased.....it is a good indicator that the people who used those cars to get to the GO do not live in neighbourhoods near lakeshore stations.

The uneven introduction and delivery of service may have good reason(s) but ridership on Lakeshore has always been enhanced by higher service levels and evening/weekend trains.

Even today as we look at the roll out of off peak on the KW service....does anyone think that the lack of evening trains is not hurting usage of the mid day trains? Do we really think that someone thinking of using that 3:52 EB train out of Mt. Pleasant is not deterred by the fact that there are no evening trains to make a logical return trip?

Service level impacts ridership...very simple....and the Lakeshores have always had an unnatural (again, perhaps explainable) service advantage in building their ridership.

Agreed. Especially weekend service. More people would be able to get downtown for games and other events.

Certainly if we are to believe that population and density drive ridership....then, service levels being equal, that should be the case.

Of course.

 

[TOareaFan]

https://twitter.com/Metrolinx/status/843901642617577472