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Globe: TTC's hybrids fail to save amount of fuel it hyped

Chris84

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TTC's hybrids fail to save amount of fuel it hyped
Pricy buses burning just 10% less diesel

JEFF GRAY

From Thursday's Globe and Mail

May 15, 2008 at 4:20 AM EDT

TORONTO — Toronto's new and expensive hybrid buses are saving less than half the amount of diesel fuel the transit agency - and the governments that paid for them - claimed.

The Toronto Transit Commission and the federal, provincial and city governments said as recently as March that the new hybrid diesel-electric buses - which cost $734,000, compared with $500,000 for a conventional bus - were using 20 to 30 per cent less fuel.

But the TTC's current fuel-savings estimate, incorporated in its 2008 budget after tests on the new fleet last summer, is just 10 per cent - although officials expect that number to improve.

As many owners of Toyota's Prius and other hybrids have learned in recent years, the actual fuel efficiency achieved by vehicles that combine an internal combustion engine with an electric motor depends a great deal on how they are driven.

The TTC's chief general manager, Gary Webster, acknowledged in an interview that the March press release overstating the hybrid buses' fuel economy was a mistake. He said the 20- to 30-per-cent figure has been achieved with the same buses in New York, but not here.

"I think in hindsight we shouldn't have said 20 to 30 per cent," Mr. Webster said. "... Given the experience we went through last year, that document ... was old news. We really should have talked about 10 to 20 per cent."

Both New York and Toronto are using Orion VII hybrid buses manufactured by Daimler-owned Orion Bus Industries in Mississauga.

The TTC says some of New York's buses are saving as much as 30 per cent on fuel because the hybrid technology is more efficient on that city's congested stop-and-go downtown routes, where the hybrid relies more on its electric motor and makes good use of the regenerative braking system that recharges its batteries.

On its more suburban, high-speed routes, where hybrids must rely more on their conventional diesel engines, New York has reported 10- to 20-per-cent reductions in fuel use, Mr. Webster said.

He said the TTC's fuel economy tests, conducted last summer on buses operating out of a North York bus garage, were poorer because Toronto's current crop of 275 hybrids are being used largely on suburban routes - with the buses also cranking their power-sucking air-conditioning systems.

Originally, the TTC had built a 20-per-cent fuel savings into its 2008 budget. But after its tests last summer, it revised its budget to account for just a 10-per-cent savings, costing it an extra $1.3-million in fuel.

As more of the hybrids arrive and begin service on Toronto's downtown routes, Mr. Webster said, fuel-efficiency results will go up, perhaps to more than 20 per cent on some of the city's most congested roads, meaning the fleet could average out in the high teens. Another test, monitoring the hybrid buses on more downtown routes, is set to begin soon.

By year's end, the TTC expects to have 564 hybrids in service, with half of its fleet made up of the new vehicles within five years.

Despite the disappointing fuel efficiency, Mr. Webster said the TTC had little choice but to go with the more expensive hybrid buses, because buying vehicles that use alternative fuels was a condition for millions in federal and provincial grants.

Ignoring the environmental benefits and looking at fuel economy alone, Mr. Webster said, the TTC never expected the savings to make up for the price premium.

The hybrids' fuel efficiency is actually the least of the TTC's financial worries, amid rising diesel costs. The transit agency expects to see its diesel bill soar from $65-million this year to $97-million next year as a fixed-price contract for diesel fuel expires, and may even consider a "fuel surcharge" to pass the cost onto riders.

Over the past few years, some owners of the Prius - the same car in which Mayor David Miller is chauffeured around - have complained that their cars do not achieve the fuel-economy numbers stated by U.S. and Canadian government testing.

In some cases, this has been blamed on rapid accelerations, air conditioning and extreme temperatures, which can dramatically alter fuel economy. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency recently revised its fuel-efficiency testing model for all cars to better mirror actual driving conditions.
 
As more of the hybrids arrive and begin service on Toronto's downtown routes, Mr. Webster said, fuel-efficiency results will go up, perhaps to more than 20 per cent on some of the city's most congested roads, meaning the fleet could average out in the high teens. Another test, monitoring the hybrid buses on more downtown routes, is set to begin soon.

The hybrids should have gone on the downtown routes from the first day. The older diesels should have been kept on the express and outer routes.
 
Arrow Road was a strange depot to send the first hybrids (1000s and 1100s) indeed, as the closest those buses get to downtown are the southern ends of the Keele and Jane routes. The new generation 1200-1500s are spread out amongst the depots - routes like Bay, Dufferin, Bathurst Bus make a bit more sense.
 
The 191 Highway 27 rocket route uses the new hybrids almost exclusively, seems rather stupid to be using them on a route that runs express on a highway for much of its trip
 
it's my understanding that the hybrids are only worthwhile in stop and go traffic. hybrids are not practical for routes that move well. you have to use the right technology in the right circumstance.
 
Toronto Star

TTC going diesel again after hybrid bus glitch

October 18, 2008

TESS KALINOWSKI
TRANSPORTATION REPORTER

The TTC is going back to buying diesel buses because the batteries on its newer hybrid diesel-electric models are proving too "hit and miss."

An existing order for 130 hybrids next year will go ahead, but next week TTC staff will recommend the commission approve a $61 million order for "clean diesel" buses in 2010.

The remaining 2009 hybrids will be delivered with Chrysler's new lithium-ion batteries rather than the lead-acid cells already in use on the TTC fleet. The TTC wants to test the newer batteries but isn't prepared to commit to that technology, said spokesperson Brad Ross, who didn't rule out the possibility of trying hybrids again after the 2010 order.

Much of the financing for the new buses came from Ottawa, which gave the TTC $303.5 million last March – enough to buy almost 700 of the new hybrids. Heavily touted at the time were the reputed environmental benefits – 37 per cent fewer greenhouse gas emissions, 30-50 per cent fewer emissions of harmful particulates, nitrous oxide emissions cut by 30 to 50 per cent and 20 to 30 per cent less fuel. There will be 564 hybrids on Toronto streets by the end of the year, about one-third of the TTC's 1,700-vehicle fleet.

"We have to have a bus that we can rely on," said Ross. "The batteries are dying much sooner than they ought to."

Batteries that should be lasting five years are surviving only about 18 months, which affects service because those buses have to come off the road for repairs, he said.

The hybrids have also failed to live up to projected fuel savings because the technology is most beneficial in stop-and-go downtown traffic and there are a limited number of such routes, Ross said. Many TTC routes operate in less busy residential neighbourhoods.

It was hoped the hybrid buses would save 20 to 30 per cent on fuel but they are achieving only about a 10 per cent saving, he said.

The TTC will save about $24 million by ordering diesel rather than hybrid because diesel buses cost about $200,000 less than the $700,000 hybrid models, he added.

The hybrid buses entered service here last December, making the TTC the first Canadian transit service to embrace the new technology in a big way. While BC Transit, Edmonton and Ottawa have a few units in service, the TTC said at the time of the roll-out that it believed it was the first transit company in Canada undertaking to create hybrids in its fleet.

The buses now on the road were built by Daimler-owned Orion Bus. The integrated chassis/body structure of each bus is assembled at Orion's Mississauga factory, then shipped to the Oriskany, N.Y., plant, where seating, engines, transmissions, axles, electrical, heating and air conditioning is added.
 
It looks like the vehicles simply failed to deliver on their promised specs. Does the TTC have to pay to replace these batteries? Can they sue whoever sold this faulty technology to them?
 
The full report on the order for the 120 new buses can be downloading in PDF from this link.

From that report is this statement:
Once the Li-Ion battery systems are proven, TTC can revert to the original plan to purchase hybrid buses when the next generation of better drive technology becomes available in the future, and also consider the conversion of the original hybrid buses, currently equipped with lead acid batteries, to Li-Ion technology.
 
Imagine that: the TTC jumped on the greenie bandwagon and it didn't pay off. :rolleyes:

There are entire blogger sites dedicated to Prius owners who are pissed off with the bill of goods they were sold. But I guess no one on the TTC Board reads any of the car bloggers sites, do they?

Let me be clear: CURRENT HYBRID TECHNOLOGY IS MORE ABOUT APPEARING TO DO THE RIGHT THING THAN ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISHING ANYTHING.

Now, perhaps in another 5 years or so, once other technologies come on-stream, hybrids (or pure electrics) will be proven, but until then it's just money down the drain.
 
see.



it's my understanding that the hybrids are only worthwhile in stop and go traffic. hybrids are not practical for routes that move well. you have to use the right technology in the right circumstance.

The hybrids have also failed to live up to projected fuel savings because the technology is most beneficial in stop-and-go downtown traffic and there are a limited number of such routes, Ross said. Many TTC routes operate in less busy residential neighbourhoods.

It was hoped the hybrid buses would save 20 to 30 per cent on fuel but they are achieving only about a 10 per cent saving, he said.

if that 10% savings is fleet wide, the savings are coming from downtown routes. they are probably wasting exta fuel on suburban routes since the bus has to carry the extra weight of the battery and other related hybrid technology. i've seen hybrids running through residential neighborhoods practically empty and at full road speed many times. there are no savings to be found in those situations, only losses.
 
It looks like the vehicles simply failed to deliver on their promised specs. Does the TTC have to pay to replace these batteries? Can they sue whoever sold this faulty technology to them?

Now, perhaps in another 5 years or so, once other technologies come on-stream, hybrids (or pure electrics) will be proven, but until then it's just money down the drain.

The hybrids replaced the CNGs in the alternate fuel fleet, and the CNGs had enough problems - they had to be specially fueled, they could not operate in certain bus terminals, and didn't have the savings promised.

There is only one tried and true "alternate" propulsion for buses, and we all know the TTC used this technology very well until they decided to let the fleet and the infrastructure fall apart, and get lulled into buying Orion CNGs with government subsidies. I am talking, of course, of the trolley bus fleet. Hamilton made the same mistake. Pure electrics are certainly proven.
 
There is only one tried and true "alternate" propulsion for buses, and we all know the TTC used this technology very well until they decided to let the fleet and the infrastructure fall apart, and get lulled into buying Orion CNGs with government subsidies. I am talking, of course, of the trolley bus fleet. Hamilton made the same mistake. Pure electrics are certainly proven.

it's too bad they tore down all the unused overhead wires when they scrapped the trolley bus fleet. i understand that in some situations the pole would come disconnected but with the new technology of today, they could install a battery backup so the bus can drive a bit without the pole attached and maybe some sort of device for the pole that automatically finds the wire.

for those who are worried about power failures, maybe they can add a backup diesel engine.
 
it's too bad they tore down all the unused overhead wires when they scrapped the trolley bus fleet. i understand that in some situations the pole would come disconnected but with the new technology of today, they could install a battery backup so the bus can drive a bit without the pole attached and maybe some sort of device for the pole that automatically finds the wire.

for those who are worried about power failures, maybe they can add a backup diesel engine.

That's essentially a hybrid....
 
it's too bad they tore down all the unused overhead wires when they scrapped the trolley bus fleet. i understand that in some situations the pole would come disconnected but with the new technology of today, they could install a battery backup so the bus can drive a bit without the pole attached and maybe some sort of device for the pole that automatically finds the wire.

for those who are worried about power failures, maybe they can add a backup diesel engine.

A backup generator that supplies power to the overhead wires would be a better idea, unless thats what you meant. Most new trolleys have backup batteries that allow the bus to operate around construction or accident sites.

I think it is a good idea for the TTC to keep fleet diversified for now (with the hybrids still an unproven technology), incase some kind of defect appears that requires the hybrids to be grounded
 
That's essentially a hybrid....

yes, but the difference is that the trolley bus would run on electricity all the time except for during power failures.

actually, instead of a backup diesel engine, maybe it could have a diesel generator to generate electricity (but only if it would be less weight than a diesel engine & transmission, etc.)

better yet, scrap the diesel engine and/or generator and just have an electric trolley with a battery backup and have a backup power plant for the TTC trolly, streetcar and subway system.

one of the biggest arguments against streetcars and trolleys is the power failure scenario. a separate TTC power grid would solve that. but then again, how often do we have 2003 blackout scenarios? would it be really worth it? probably not.
 

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