G&M on the "Madrid Miracle"

[vz64]

Just because Yugoslavia does something doesn't make it a great idea...

Electrification doesn't really make sense for what North Americans use trains for. Long-haul, practically transcontinental, freight shipping doesn't really benefit from electrification. Most of the trackage avoids cities, so air pollution isn't a major concern, stops are infrequent so acceleration/deceleration isn't terribly important and the great distances make electrification prohibitively expensive on a continental scale which then leads to adoption problems.

Europeans promoted short-haul passenger railways heavily, and electrification is basically a prerequisite for that. Now freight rail is almost extinct in Europe because it was crowded off the rails. 40% of N.American freight moves on railways, while only 8% of European freight does.

Again, my point wasn't that we have the greatest infrastructure on earth. We don't. Given our climate and geography we probably never will. It's just not the biggest deal. Infrastructure suffers from serious diminishing returns beyond a certain point, especially compared to social investment. The classic example is Japan. They pretty much have the greatest infrastructure on Earth, most of it doing nothing for society. Electrifying our railways would cost many billions of dollars and the benefit to Canadians would be quite small by comparison. So why bother?

Interestinlgy, Russia's Transsiberian Railway (9288km) is completely electrified. Among the benefits mentioned are amount, intensity, and speed of trains, longevity of fleet and locomotives, maintenance stability in severe winter conditions, and reduced pollution.

 

[EFSF Jaburo]

People in Toronto don't seem to think GO and Subway can coexist though.

If you mean by how little integration there is between the GO and subway, you're right. It's quite sad to see that only 2-3 stations are located right next to a GO station (eg Union, Kipling, maybe Old Mill/Leslie). I think GO should have been the express variant of the subway but this is not possible before electrification

 

[kettal]

I think he's trying to bring up the MCC subway discussion again. You know, the one which always ends in him running away crying.

 

[Dan416]

I think he's trying to bring up the MCC subway discussion again. You know, the one which always ends in him running away crying.

I'm the one who ends up crying? I don't ever seem to recall losing the argument. Least of all because no one has ever proven that regional rail and subway duplicate each other's services.

 

[Fresh Start]

I think he's trying to bring up the MCC subway discussion again. You know, the one which always ends in him running away crying.

In like every thread, as if Mississauga will somehow wither away and die without one. I'd rather see the money go towards Hurontario LRT in a subway that seamlessly connects with REX trains at Cooksville, thank you. REX that penetrates all of Sauga, and not just its centre.

 

[Dan416]

In like every thread, as if Mississauga will somehow wither away and die without one. I'd rather see the money go towards Hurontario LRT in a subway that seamlessly connects with REX trains at Cooksville, thank you. REX that penetrates all of Sauga, and not just its centre.

I'm not against any of those things, I've been very vocal in support of the Hurontario LRT. And if you guys are going to attack the MCC line on the SOS map in every thread, then I'm going to respond in every thread. Despite the fact that, you know, we have a thread for that. And we have that Mississauga attack thread too.

 

[doady]

Since Mississauga is the worst sprawl, with the most pedestrian and transit-unfriendly streets, perhaps it should get neither subway, nor LRT, nor regional rail, and just trash it's useless bus system.

 

[nfitz]

No, I wouldn't. It subsidizes heavy industry at the expense of poorer Quebecers, it subsidizes rural middle-class at the expense of Quebec's youth and it leads to rampant environmental destruction and over consumption. It's social justice ass backwards.

It also kills a lot less people in a year than Ontario's power stations. I guess it depends on how you value human life ...

 

[BMO]

I actually support a B-D extension to missisauga, I think it would provide a vital link to Toronto, just like how the subways to York Region will help connect it to Toronto better even if they do already have 3 GO rail lines into York Region. the subway could provide a more local link. but that's my opinion, I know there are a bunch of people who think GO is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

 

[hbl33]

I actually support a B-D extension to missisauga, I think it would provide a vital link to Toronto, just like how the subways to York Region will help connect it to Toronto better even if they do already have 3 GO rail lines into York Region. the subway could provide a more local link. but that's my opinion, I know there are a bunch of people who think GO is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

SO would I, only if McCallion is out of office (she keeps resisting any intensification in Mississauga other than Port Credit and MCC), fare integration is in effect, as well as DRL under construction and privatize TTC. In fact, I would then support more subway proposals to Sauga as well.

 

[Dan416]

I actually support a B-D extension to missisauga, I think it would provide a vital link to Toronto, just like how the subways to York Region will help connect it to Toronto better even if they do already have 3 GO rail lines into York Region. the subway could provide a more local link. but that's my opinion, I know there are a bunch of people who think GO is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

GO is great, for getting downtown. For anywhere in-between, well that's not it's market. It's just not the way it's structured. Even if frequencies were increased to half-hourly trains on all lines, it still misses a lot of trip generators. There'll always be a need for local routes. Arbitrarily deciding that Mississauga is the point where subway ends and GO begins just doesn't make sense to me, especially when it's no farther than parts of Scarborough from downtown.

 

[Second_in_pie]

GO is great, for getting downtown. For anywhere in-between, well that's not it's market. It's just not the way it's structured. Even if frequencies were increased to half-hourly trains on all lines, it still misses a lot of trip generators. There'll always be a need for local routes. Arbitrarily deciding that Mississauga is the point where subway ends and GO begins just doesn't make sense to me, especially when it's no farther than parts of Scarborough from downtown.

IT'S NOT AN ARBITRARY DECISION BECAUSE IT'S MISSISSAUGA. IT'S BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

It's only Mississauga-hating if you want it to. The truth is that a subway will only needlessly duplicate service that regional rail would. And don't use the stupid excuse that the Milton line doesn't go to MCC. If the B-D can go to MCC, the Milton line can as well. If you think that the B-D extension is needed to make Mississauga feel like a big boy, then horray for you. But it's no basis for transit planning.

At least the Milton line needs to get it's work done first. If at that point there's still gaping holes in the network in Mississauga, then maybe the B-D could be extended. But there's absolutely no justification in building the B-D before doing anything with the Milton line, with one of the prime reasons being that the Milton line doesn't provide a good enough service.

 

[Dan416]

IT'S NOT AN ARBITRARY DECISION BECAUSE IT'S MISSISSAUGA. IT'S BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

It's only Mississauga-hating if you want it to. The truth is that a subway will only needlessly duplicate service that regional rail would. And don't use the stupid excuse that the Milton line doesn't go to MCC. If the B-D can go to MCC, the Milton line can as well. If you think that the B-D extension is needed to make Mississauga feel like a big boy, then horray for you. But it's no basis for transit planning.

At least the Milton line needs to get it's work done first. If at that point there's still gaping holes in the network in Mississauga, then maybe the B-D could be extended. But there's absolutely no justification in building the B-D before doing anything with the Milton line, with one of the prime reasons being that the Milton line doesn't provide a good enough service.

There's absolutely no reason to wait on Milton to get bought away from CP before extending the Bloor line. Kipling was built over TWENTY years ago. In 2011 it'll be 30 years. You're telling me growth in the western GTA in the last 30 years doesn't warrant western subway expansion, despite the north getting two? I don't accept that. And if I don't accept that, neither does SOS.

 

[casaguy]

Toronto population 2.48 million (5.5 million GTA) gets this:

Madrid population 3.2 million gets this:

(2016 map)

Fascinating and sad contrast.

Thank you for this thread! I had no idea Madrid was light years ahead of us.

 

[Dan416]

To be fair, at least compare apples to apples (although even if that were the case, we're still losing, but it'd be more accurate).

That Madrid map is 2016, and is it all metro or does it include any regional rail on that map? I honestly can't tell.