G&M on the "Madrid Miracle"

[Filip]

To make you guys hate life even more.. Madrid has an extremely well developed system of regional trains (much alike our GO trains) called the Cercanías.

They don't follow for the most part 'established' corridors, but make their own, to be able to bring passengers the most rapidly from the outer towns and suburbs into the centre. In the centre, the trains have tunnels, underground stations and anything in between. That's why I believe we shouldn't be working on extending the subway to Vaughan, but bringing GO train service over there! Something like this as a network: Vaughan CC, Yorkdale, Bloor, Union; with most of the line being underground. That's how you build a network and get people out of their cars! My university is 20km from the centre of Madrid, to get to it I grab the Cercanias at Sol, and it takes 22 minutes to get me all the way to the university! Incredible right? I couldn't believe it when I got here.

Sol Station

Intercambiador de Atocha (kinda like our Union)

Intercambiador de Nuevos Ministerios (by far the most impressive considering 5 tunnels meet in a giant mess of station)

Best part is? Access to using the Cercanias network comes with your metropass! for 30 euros a month I have unlimited access to the metro, bus, light rail, regional rail up to zone B1 (which is well into the outskirts)... It's great to have a heavily subsidized system isn't it?

 

[EFSF Jaburo]

In saying "most other countries" are you comparing tax levels in Canada to (a) only other G8/G20 nations, or (b) all other nations including developing countries like Zambia, Turkmenistan, Bhutan, and Tuvalu?

If the answer is (b), then it seems to me that we should naturally be paying more tax than most others, and basing any criticism upon their levels of taxation is an irrelevant thesis.

I thought it was pretty clear that I was comparing tax levels to other 'developed' nations like France, Japan, Italy ...etc

Zambians make a fraction (few dollars a day) of an average Canadian hence they pay less tax than us. Even adjusting for PPP, they still pay less.

We don't even have an electrified railway.

faster deceleration, acceleration, cheaper maintenance...

Hell, the whole transsiberian is electrified ! why can't they at least electrify one or two GO lines.

 

[EFSF Jaburo]

for 30 euros a month I have unlimited access to the metro, bus, light rail, regional rail up to zone B1 (which is well into the outskirts)... It's great to have a heavily subsidized system isn't it?

what a deal!
Here, we would have to pay around 4-5 times that amount
TTC metropass +GO monthly pass + your local bedtown's monthly pass

Honestly, life would be so much easier for commuters if TTC has some kind of fare integration with GO

 

[Dan416]

what a deal!
Here, we would have to pay around 4-5 times that amount
TTC metropass +GO monthly pass + your local bedtown's monthly pass

Honestly, life would be so much easier for commuters if TTC has some kind of fare integration with GO

Yes it would. Hence why some of us have advocated that the TTC and GO Transit be merged (along with all GTA transit systems).

That would likely lead to higher GO ridership, but the need for local transit wouldn't exactly disappear either.

 

[EFSF Jaburo]

Just making all trips to/from Union within the downtown loop free with a GO ticket will exponentially increase GO ridership and make things many times more efficient.

A merger isn't necessary for this to happen. Seoul's system has fare integration between the 2 subway operators, national rail (Korail), and all buses (operated by dozens of different companies)

 

[Dan416]

Just making all trips to/from Union within the downtown loop free with a GO ticket will exponentially increase GO ridership and make things many times more efficient.

A merger isn't necessary for this to happen. Seoul's system has fare integration between the 2 subway operators, national rail (Korail), and all buses (operated by dozens of different companies)

Necessary? Maybe if there weren't such jurisdictional issues here then you'd be right.

 

[EFSF Jaburo]

^^^ GO already has integration (albeit not free transfers) with most of the regional transit systems including YRT, MT, OT, DRT. TTC is the only one holding out for some reason.

 

[Dan416]

^^^ GO already has integration (albeit not free transfers) with most of the regional transit systems including YRT, MT, OT, DRT. TTC is the only one holding out for some reason.

It's not seamless integration. You still have to pay extra, although not as much. Point A to Point B should be one fare, period.

 

[Filip]

In Madrid, that's what I do.

For example, if I have to go to the airport, I know I can take the metro, but the line begins at Nuevos Ministerios. So, to save myself a good 20 minutes, I grab the Cercanias (whose frequencies are at no more than 8 minutes) from Sol, up to Nuevos Ministerios, then switch to the metro up to the airport.

Many times in Toronto I refuse to wait for the bloody Queen streetcar, so I pay the $3.50 or so to grab the GO Train from Union to Mimico, which is a 10 min walk from my house. That way I can save 30-40 minutes!

 

[Dan416]

Somehow Madrid has regional rail and subways coexisting. And yet they both survive and thrive. Amazing.

 

[Second_in_pie]

If Transit were a Nature Documentary

Somehow Madrid has regional rail and subways coexisting. And yet they both survive and thrive. Amazing.

Yes. Once two separate systems competing for survival, the timid regional rail and strong subway have recently begun to work together for the benefit of both. Of course, this alliance of the systems has only been made possible by human interference, but many experts agree that this unification has made both species stronger and better able to cope in the dangerous world they exist in. The future of both these creatures is uncertain, but experts are hoping - just hoping - that they can rebound and thrive, coexisting with the parasitic automobiles that scourge the environment they live in. In fact, regional rail and subways once worked together just like this. But pressures on the environment created by the rapidly multiplying automobiles caused the two to start completing for room in the ecosystem. Scientists are uncertain as to the future of the automobile as well, but it seems that regional rail and subways have evolved to take on this new threat. And, with a bit of human help, subways and regional rail will both return to their rightful place at the top of the food chain.

 

[kEiThZ]

Cars, vacations, inflating housing prices?

Higher pay and standards. We have one of the best paid public sectors in the world. And we generally have tougher standards for alot of stuff we do (like construction and rail operations). If we can accept Madrid's pay rates for construction workers and their safety standards maybe we'd get more out of the system, but who here wants to advocate for that?

 

[Filip]

Higher pay and standards. We have one of the best paid public sectors in the world. And we generally have tougher standards for alot of stuff we do (like construction and rail operations). If we can accept Madrid's pay rates for construction workers and their safety standards maybe we'd get more out of the system, but who here wants to advocate for that?

I would! If it means a bigger, better network that is the benefit of millions of people then be it.
If you don't assume the risks of working in construction then find another hobby.

 

[EFSF Jaburo]

It's not seamless integration. You still have to pay extra, although not as much. Point A to Point B should be one fare, period.

That would be ideal but in the real world, you have to pay depending on distance you travel. Madrid's regional map on the top has different zones based on distance, in the GTA, there is no zone based fare (except for the GO). So you can't really expect to pay JUST the go fare. For me, 60 cents is a reasonable amount.

Somehow Madrid has regional rail and subways coexisting. And yet they both survive and thrive. Amazing.

This is quite common outside N.A. for example, London and Paris. I think New York has an extensive commuter line as well

 

[Dan416]

That would be ideal but in the real world, you have to pay depending on distance you travel. Madrid's regional map on the top has different zones based on distance, in the GTA, there is no zone based fare (except for the GO). So you can't really expect to pay JUST the go fare. For me, 60 cents is a reasonable amount.



This is quite common outside N.A. for example, London and Paris. I think New York has an extensive commuter line as well

Of course you pay for the distance travelled. That's why I said from Point A to to Point B it should be one fare. Maybe I should have added it should be one fare as well for Point A to C, B to Z and C to X. But it doesn't have to be the same fare. Just ONE fare. Pay once.

People in Toronto don't seem to think GO and Subway can coexist though.