Fords Working to Fire Webster, Stintz, Scrap Streetcars: Star

[44 North]

Factoring the interest payments for the debt of its capital cost - and the significant amount in operating losses - each passenger on Sheppard currently costs almost $4.00.

How much would you say each passenger costs with a $5B extension? Let's say with a hypothetical (and generous) ridership increase of 50% (72,000 riders/day)?

Any way you look at it, it would still be grossly unfair to other transit users, taxpayers, and the city. I'd equate that to theft.

 

[doady]

Considering that Sheppard was such a costly mistake, one could look at its grossly enormous capital and operating costs as stealing funds from the rest of the TTC.

And even if an extension instantly resulted in a 50% increase in ridership, it would still be an over-subsidized financial burden that drains (or steals) funds from elsewhere in the system. More crowded buses for Finch East, Finch West, Don Mills, Dufferin, Eglinton West, Jane... But fret no more because we'll have a near-empty suburban subway line to a Scarborough shopping mall!

Yes, because the fact that suburban Toronto has plethora of overcrowded bus routes with 5 minute or better frequencies like Finch East, Finch West, Don Mills, Dufferin, Eglinton West, Jane clearly proves that it cannot support subways.

Factoring the interest payments for the debt of its capital cost - and the significant amount in operating losses - each passenger on Sheppard currently costs almost $4.00.

Considering debt, maybe it is better not build higher order transit at all, because it will always make transit more inefficient and a loss to the taxpayers and transit riders according to your standard.

How much would you say each passenger costs with a $5B extension? Let's say with a hypothetical (and generous) ridership increase of 50% (72,000 riders/day)?

So spending 5B dollars to expand a subway line that originally cost 1B dollars will only result in an ridership increase of 50%, an increase that is lower than current ridership of the Sheppard East bus, and this is the most optimistic prediction? Whatever you say.

Any way you look at it, it would still be grossly unfair to other transit users, taxpayers, and the city. I'd equate that to theft.

I guess that is why the TTC is cancelling so much lesser used service. A few riders are stealing from other transit users, taxpayers, and the city. The Blue Night service is theft.

 

[jje1000]

Yes, because the fact that suburban Toronto has plethora of overcrowded bus routes with 5 minute or better frequencies like Finch East, Finch West, Don Mills, Dufferin, Eglinton West, Jane clearly proves that it cannot support subways.

Considering that a subway is a massive jump in capacity and cost from bus routes, I doubt it would be the best solution for now. Bring on the BRTs!

 

[Electrify]

If we are talking about fiscal restraint, operating the Sheppard subway exclusively during rush hour would be the best solution.

In hindsight, Finch would have been the best candidate for higher order transit expansion. You could have the 400,401,404, and 407 act as a ring road to North York, and then have the Yonge and Finch lines bring people into the city centre.

 

[44 North]

Yes, because the fact that suburban Toronto has plethora of overcrowded bus routes with 5 minute or better frequencies like Finch East, Finch West, Don Mills, Dufferin, Eglinton West, Jane clearly proves that it cannot support subways.



Considering debt, maybe it is better not build higher order transit at all, because it will always make transit more inefficient and a loss to the taxpayers and transit riders according to your standard.



So spending 5B dollars to expand a subway line that originally cost 1B dollars will only result in an ridership increase of 50%, an increase that is lower than current ridership of the Sheppard East bus, and this is the most optimistic prediction? Whatever you say.


I guess that is why the TTC is cancelling so much lesser used service. A few riders are stealing from other transit users, taxpayers, and the city. The Blue Night service is theft.

Well, we're talking about ONE subway line. And '5 minutes or better' doesn't necessarily mean good service. Especially if all the buses are at-capacity and idling in mixed traffic.

Higher order transit is fine. If it has the ridership to merit a particular higher order. Sheppard East's ridership of 29,000/day does not fall into the significantly higher order of Heavy Rail subways.

That is very optimistic. Especially considering that the current Sheppard Subway shares a good portion of its riders with the 85 Sheppard East. Also that the 85 Sheppard East goes well beyond the subway's proposed terminus of Scarboro Town Centre.

There are staunch differences between quality service, good service, so-so service, and running near-empty HRT subways to fulfill a campaign promise. There are also differences between cutting a route to save a few thousand dollars, and ignoring a route that loses 10s of Millions of dollars every year.

 

[44 North]

Considering that a subway is a massive jump in capacity and cost from bus routes, I doubt it would be the best solution for now. Bring on the BRTs!

Woah, woah, woah. BRT means potentially taking a lane from cars. We'd have to wait 3.5 years until Ford is out for there to be discussion of anything involving that.

For now its full buses in mixed traffic. And $Millions wasted on looking at how to fund Sheppard; then in 3.5 years deeming that it is in no way worthy of a $5,000,000,000 investment.

 

[44 North]

And Doady,

How much would you say each rider on Sheppard would cost with a $5 Billion subway extension?
Let's say with interest on its capital debt at 5%; and an even more generous ridership projection of 90,000/day by 2025.

 

[M II A II R II K]

More college campuses along the new subway route can be a catalyst for acquiring individual parcels, modernizing outmoded structures, build classrooms, labs, residence halls, student centers, administrative places, and stuff.

 

[jje1000]

Woah, woah, woah. BRT means potentially taking a lane from cars. We'd have to wait 3.5 years until Ford is out for there to be discussion of anything involving that.

For now its full buses in mixed traffic. And $Millions wasted on looking at how to fund Sheppard; then in 3.5 years deeming that it is in no way worthy of a $5,000,000,000 investment.

No no no, you put the bus routes underground so they don't mingle with traffic!

 

[andrewpmk]

Well, we're talking about ONE subway line. And '5 minutes or better' doesn't necessarily mean good service. Especially if all the buses are at-capacity and idling in mixed traffic.

Higher order transit is fine. If it has the ridership to merit a particular higher order. Sheppard East's ridership of 29,000/day does not fall into the significantly higher order of Heavy Rail subways.

That is very optimistic. Especially considering that the current Sheppard Subway shares a good portion of its riders with the 85 Sheppard East. Also that the 85 Sheppard East goes well beyond the subway's proposed terminus of Scarboro Town Centre.

There are staunch differences between quality service, good service, so-so service, and running near-empty HRT subways to fulfill a campaign promise. There are also differences between cutting a route to save a few thousand dollars, and ignoring a route that loses 10s of Millions of dollars every year.

Current bus ridership is a poor indicator of future subway ridership.

Sheppard runs parallel to Highway 401 which has over 300000 cars/day in any given section through Toronto, and suffers from chronic traffic congestion at rush hour. Also Sheppard is parallel to Finch which is also a very busy bus route.

The Sheppard subway is relatively underused because it was only half built and you have to transfer to buses at Don Mills to get anywhere. Even so, it certainly isn't empty, and can be quite crowded in rush hours. The last time I took the Sheppard subway on SUNDAY about half the seats on the train were filled. Extend it in both directions and I think that it will be an attractive alternative to driving on the 401.

Extending the Sheppard subway should not be at the expense of other projects though. Cancelling the downtown streetcar order is crazy.

 

[44 North]

Current bus ridership is a poor indicator of future subway ridership.

Sheppard runs parallel to Highway 401 which has over 300000 cars/day in any given section through Toronto, and suffers from chronic traffic congestion at rush hour. Also Sheppard is parallel to Finch which is also a very busy bus route.

The Sheppard subway is relatively underused because it was only half built and you have to transfer to buses at Don Mills to get anywhere. Even so, it certainly isn't empty, and can be quite crowded in rush hours. The last time I took the Sheppard subway on SUNDAY about half the seats on the train were filled. Extend it in both directions and I think that it will be an attractive alternative to driving on the 401.

Extending the Sheppard subway should not be at the expense of other projects though. Cancelling the downtown streetcar order is crazy.

I don't buy the argument that an extension of Sheppard would create more riders who would otherwise drive on the 401. Better regional rail options, yes. But not a short subway connection to STC.

Regardless, even if an extension did provide somewhat of alternative to the 401; that's simply adding more riders to an already congested system. It in no way addresses any of the overcrowded transit routes currently plaguing the city. And studies of those who use the Finch E/W buses found that many are simply making short trips and would not benefit from using Sheppard 2km south.

Instead of worrying about the 401 and adding more passengers, the TTC should take care of the issues facing its patrons in the present. That's what the biggest election issue was before talk of "gravy" marred smart transit planning.

And the fact is that a Sheppard Subway IS at the expense of other projects. Be it with the new streetcar order, or the 90,000 stuck riding packed buses on Finch.

 

[Dan416]

I don't buy the argument that an extension of Sheppard would create more riders who would otherwise drive on the 401. Better regional rail options, yes. But not a short subway connection to STC.

Regardless, even if an extension did provide somewhat of alternative to the 401; that's simply adding more riders to an already congested system. It in no way addresses any of the overcrowded transit routes currently plaguing the city. And studies of those who use the Finch E/W buses found that many are simply making short trips and would not benefit from using Sheppard 2km south.

Instead of worrying about the 401 and adding more passengers, the TTC should take care of the issues facing its patrons in the present. That's what the biggest election issue was before talk of "gravy" marred smart transit planning.

And the fact is that a Sheppard Subway IS at the expense of other projects. Be it with the new streetcar order, or the 90,000 stuck riding packed buses on Finch.

I don't think many 401 drivers are going to be taking ANY subway. The Sheppard subway, if completed, would draw riders from parallel routes. Incomplete, it will never do that.

 

[hawc]

Sheppard is such a weird place to build another subway. If any route needs a subway its Eglinton.

 

[gweed123]

Woah, woah, woah. BRT means potentially taking a lane from cars. We'd have to wait 3.5 years until Ford is out for there to be discussion of anything involving that.

For now its full buses in mixed traffic. And $Millions wasted on looking at how to fund Sheppard; then in 3.5 years deeming that it is in no way worthy of a $5,000,000,000 investment.

Not necessarily. Putting in queue jump lanes at major intersections along busy bus routes would do wonders for the efficiency of the routes. And since it would be a localized road widening at an intersection, no reduced roadspace for cars at all. And most of all for Ford, it would get buses out of the way of cars (it just so happens that adding in queue jump lanes would do more for the buses than it would for the cars).

This concept is being implemented very well on Baseline Road in Ottawa. Key intersections are being widened out to include buses only lanes around the intersections (about 50m before the intersection and about 25m after the intersection). It has already increased the efficiency of the routes. Over time, mid-block widenings will take place in strategic locations where mid-block congestion is highest.

This is one of the biggest advantages of BRT: incremental upgrades and expansions. It doesn't have to be done all in 1 shot like LRT or subway. Get the queue jump lanes in place now (for a relatively low capital cost, even couple it with road widenings if you like), and then do the mid-block BRT lanes once a more transit-friendly mayor is in office.

 

[gweed123]

I don't think many 401 drivers are going to be taking ANY subway. The Sheppard subway, if completed, would draw riders from parallel routes. Incomplete, it will never do that.

Agreed. The only type of service that would make a dent in 401 traffic volumes is an express rail or express bus service that uses the 401 (or runs parallel to it, or serves the same trip patterns as the 401 does).