First time condo buyer: Yonge/Shep - Opinions requested

[Top Rate]

I'm new to posting here but have been lurking for a bit - so Hello everyone!

I've been renting near Mt. Pleasant and Eglinton for about a year now and love that area. My search to buy has begun, and I've resigned being able to afford a 550 sq foot 1 bedroom in my price range (Approx 270K is my top end budget) . I work near dufferin and steeles, and so transit is not that big a deal for daily work commute - I will be driving regardless. The yonge line / vomit comet is key for the weekends though!!

I've tentatively decided that Yonge/Sheppard will likely be where I choose to buy my first condo (Approx April 2010). I've dismissed Yonge / Finch as it is a bit too deserted for my taste (despite really liking the building and facilities offered at 7 Bishop ave). I enjoy being able to walk to a mall / amenities, and I find there is more in the yonge / Shep area than yonge / finch (and especially the case at Bayview/Shep, another option I had considered!)

Finally, Here are my questions to the forum - I'd value any opinions offered, specifically from those who have first-hand experience in the North York (Specifically the Shep - Finch corridor of Yonge St.).

1) I see that the condos up at Yonge/Shep are priced in the 250 to 270 range, am I crazy in still holding on to a dream of living near Yonge + Eg for that kind of money? The alternative isn't so bad, although I would be the first to admit Yonge/Shep is nowhere near as exciting as Yonge/Eg, but I believe it offers a similar (if diminished) feel. At least close to that I have felt while living at Mt. Pleasant and Eg.

2) Currently my radar is tuned at resale condos in the Y&Shep area, specifically the Ultima towers at 4968 & 4978 Yonge going for 250K - 270K currently (1 bedroom, approx 530 - 550 sq foot). Does anyone have experience in other buildings near yonge/sheppard that I may want to consider? Connected to subway is a huge plus, but not a dealbreaker if the price / space is right. My eye is on MLS and working with a broker to get new updates daily on the area, but if anyone on the forum knows of a great building to keep an eye on, it would be appreciated!

Thanks everyone, this is the biggest decision of my life and am trying to get opinion everywhere I can! Much obliged - have a good one!

 

[CN Tower]

1) I see that the condos up at Yonge/Shep are priced in the 250 to 270 range, am I crazy in still holding on to a dream of living near Yonge + Eg for that kind of money? The alternative isn't so bad, although I would be the first to admit Yonge/Shep is nowhere near as exciting as Yonge/Eg, but I believe it offers a similar (if diminished) feel. At least close to that I have felt while living at Mt. Pleasant and Eg.

You 'see' but you also don't 'see clearly'. You are much better off renting at Yonge and Eglinton and savings thousands of dollars per year while enjoying a more desirable neighbourhood. There are dozens of very attractive rental options, all substantially less than the all in cost of owning.

That is my opinion but good luck in any case!

 

[Top Rate]

You 'see' but you also don't 'see clearly'. You are much better off renting at Yonge and Eglinton and savings thousands of dollars per year while enjoying a more desirable neighbourhood. There are dozens of very attractive rental options, all substantially less than the all in cost of owning.

That is my opinion but good luck in any case!

Thanks for the reply CN Tower, and I could definitely continue to rent in the area and save money, no doubt. But I've made the decision to buy now and take advantage of the current mortgage rates.

I'm not arguing that I could save money by renting, but the time has come for me to invest in a home of my own, and start generating equity while taking advantage of the low mortgage rates now. The difference in carrying cost based on my current rental situation is about $400, and with my rent increasing in April, that gap would narrow to about $375.

I'm sure some in the renter's world would disagree but that's where my head's at.

 

[EXgeMMy]

Have you looked at the financial side of things?

Is that $375 a month difference based on a 35 year mortgage?

Are you calculating on a 2.25 variable rate which is sure to go up?

Have you factored in maintenance fees and property taxes in that difference or are you calculating just the mortgage?


Do you have 20% down? If not you would be paying more due to CMHC insurance.

Regardless a friend of mine just bought a 1bedroom condo in the ultima building a month ago for $270K with parking. IMO that's high. But I'm not the buyer.

Also I would argue there is more going on between North York Centre and Finch as opposed to Sheppard - NYCC but that's your decision.

 

[Top Rate]

Have you looked at the financial side of things?

Is that $375 a month difference based on a 35 year mortgage?

Are you calculating on a 2.25 variable rate which is sure to go up?

Have you factored in maintenance fees and property taxes in that difference or are you calculating just the mortgage?


Do you have 20% down? If not you would be paying more due to CMHC insurance.

Regardless a friend of mine just bought a 1bedroom condo in the ultima building a month ago for $270K with parking. IMO that's high. But I'm not the buyer.

Also I would argue there is more going on between North York Centre and Finch as opposed to Sheppard - NYCC but that's your decision.

Looking at 25 year amotization, 20% down payment, approx 3.8% fixed rate, might look at variable of 2% but I am concerned it would surpass the 3.8% fixed in less than 2.5 years, which may nullify my choice... but who can estimate interest rates, right? All I know is that come June they are likely to increase, and after that point nobody knows. Are mortgages likely to go over 3.8% in the next 5 years? I'd love to know but who can tell me lol!

I'd be interested to know how your friend is enjoying the building and lifestyle there?

And I'd also be interested to hear what you feel north of NYCC has to offer - maybe I'm just not seeing what's there, but driving up Yonge once I pass NYCC it seems to me to be pretty sparse - again, I'd love to hear your opinions!

 

[UrbanVigor]

Although I haven't looked in the Yonge & Sheppard area, I currently also live at Mt. Pleasant & Eglinton and so I can share your perspective very well.

I used to live at Yonge & Sheppard many years ago and moved to Yonge & Eglinton probably for the same reasons you did and for reasons of which I can guess you look for in a neighbourhood. Yonge & Sheppard has come a long way over the past 10 years, but you will be making a compromise. However, considering you work at Dufferin & Steeles, your commute will have about 10 minutes shaved off. Believe me that a shorter commute = better lifestyle.

Ah, but I also have a good idea of your lifestyle outside of work. OMG - the subway north of Eglinton feels like an eternity late at night and naturally the vomit comet even moreso.

Yonge & Sheppard has improved a lot over the years but it's not nearly as vibrant as Yonge & Eg. I recently purchased a pre-construction and so I don't know what the current market is, but how much are units going for at the pre-construction on Redpath? Pretty much the same location as you are now and maybe you can get an entry level condo at a pre-construction price at Yonge & Eg. There are other buildings to look at too, but yeah research will need to be done.

 

[EXgeMMy]

I did a walk of the area recently from sheppard - finch and back down. As I was looking at possibly moving to that area.

In my opinion I found the sheppard-NYCC area busier during the day. but overall I found that NYCC-Finch to be busier at night ( I visited the area at multiple times).

To me I guess it seems there is more residential towards finch hence why more traffic at night.

Another example is the shoppers at Finch is 24hours but not the one at Sheppard.

During my walk around I found there to be more retail / restaurants closer to finch as it seemed a lot of the condos in that area had retail built into the first floor.

I also found there to be more empty space in general between Sheppard - NYCC.

I also timed how long it takes on the subway during rush hour from Finch - Davisville. Times averaged 12-16 mins. It only seems long as the distance between stops from Eglinton-Sheppard is longer.

This is my own personal opinion. To each their own.

 

[Top Rate]

I did a walk of the area recently from sheppard - finch and back down. As I was looking at possibly moving to that area.

In my opinion I found the sheppard-NYCC area busier during the day. but overall I found that NYCC-Finch to be busier at night ( I visited the area at multiple times).

To me I guess it seems there is more residential towards finch hence why more traffic at night.

Another example is the shoppers at Finch is 24hours but not the one at Sheppard.

During my walk around I found there to be more retail / restaurants closer to finch as it seemed a lot of the condos in that area had retail built into the first floor.

I also found there to be more empty space in general between Sheppard - NYCC.

I also timed how long it takes on the subway during rush hour from Finch - Davisville. Times averaged 12-16 mins. It only seems long as the distance between stops from Eglinton-Sheppard is longer.

This is my own personal opinion. To each their own.

Thanks for the thoughts, any word from your friend on how he/she likes the building?

As far as preconstruction near yonge and Eg, the only one I'm aware of on Redpath is 83 Redpath - occupancy is slated for Feb 2010 and I haven't been able to find any availability in my price range - don't even know if there is any!

I have a friend who is renting a unit in teh Quantum towers, and I absolutely love the place. Unfortunately, to buy starts at 320K from what I've seen pop up on MLS.

I'm still in the early stages of the hunt, so can't rule much out right now, thanks everyone for the opinions so far.

 

[EXgeMMy]

my friend actually moves in next week so have no thoughts about the building yet.

If I were to move to that area being closer to finch or sheppard wouldn't make a diff to me. If there were 2 similar units I'd just go for the one that is cheaper.

I like the buildings on Olive street built by Pemberton. Next to no amenities so maintenance fees are lower (they include hydro) plus 2mins to the subway (which would make no difference to you)

There's a tridel at yonge / eglinton still being built but I think a 1bedroom is in the $350K range and not sure if that includes parking.

 

[chucky]

another opinion

First, the rent vs buy option... my sister-in-law, who is an accountant, has done the math on this and it's pretty much the same thing. When you factor in all the interest, property taxes, maintenance fees, repairs, utilities, more repairs etc you will probably not have much more in the bank than if you had taken the extra monthly amount and invested it. Home prices can go down - remember 1989 when they dropped about 40% in Toronto and took 10 years to get back to where they were. Imagine if you take a 225k mortgage out on this condo and next year it's worth 195k. Possible. Of course it's possible to lose money in investments too.

Bottom line - it's more of a psychological choice, and you seem to have made it.

As for Yonge & Sheppard, it's a terrible area. There are too many apartments in a small area and very few decent shops/restaurants. The traffic is absolutely horrific -- it can take 10-20 minutes to cross Sheppard at rush hour. My brother lives there and it takes him that long to get to the 401 on ramp in the morning. The area has no charm, no character and never will because it's just one development on top of another with no thought put to streetscapes. Yeah, there's the Ford centre. There's also the Sheppard Centre - yuck.

Yonge & Eglinton on the other hand is a great neighbourhood build for people to actually live. You can walk to shops/restaurants and things are at the right scale (excepting those awful Minto buildings). It feels like a place to call home, whereas Y&S feels like a place to park yourself until something better comes along.

So my advice is to follow the location, location, location rule and push your budget to live where you want, in the better area. Just make sure you're not overextending yourself and not paying too much in a heated market. When you calculate your mortgage payments, calculate it at 8% and 12% to see what would happen when you have to renew in five years if interest rates go up, and they will sooner or later.

Good luck.

 

[Top Rate]

First, the rent vs buy option... my sister-in-law, who is an accountant, has done the math on this and it's pretty much the same thing. When you factor in all the interest, property taxes, maintenance fees, repairs, utilities, more repairs etc you will probably not have much more in the bank than if you had taken the extra monthly amount and invested it. Home prices can go down - remember 1989 when they dropped about 40% in Toronto and took 10 years to get back to where they were. Imagine if you take a 225k mortgage out on this condo and next year it's worth 195k. Possible. Of course it's possible to lose money in investments too.

Bottom line - it's more of a psychological choice, and you seem to have made it.

As for Yonge & Sheppard, it's a terrible area. There are too many apartments in a small area and very few decent shops/restaurants. The traffic is absolutely horrific -- it can take 10-20 minutes to cross Sheppard at rush hour. My brother lives there and it takes him that long to get to the 401 on ramp in the morning. The area has no charm, no character and never will because it's just one development on top of another with no thought put to streetscapes. Yeah, there's the Ford centre. There's also the Sheppard Centre - yuck.

Yonge & Eglinton on the other hand is a great neighbourhood build for people to actually live. You can walk to shops/restaurants and things are at the right scale (excepting those awful Minto buildings). It feels like a place to call home, whereas Y&S feels like a place to park yourself until something better comes along.

So my advice is to follow the location, location, location rule and push your budget to live where you want, in the better area. Just make sure you're not overextending yourself and not paying too much in a heated market. When you calculate your mortgage payments, calculate it at 8% and 12% to see what would happen when you have to renew in five years if interest rates go up, and they will sooner or later.

Good luck.

Thanks for the honest opinion Chucky. As far as a psychological decision, indeed I do believe that it's just easier for me to save by purchasing instead of renting, it's just the way I am. I mean, am I a savvy investor? No, and I need to work on that, but right now it feels like Real Estate is a good move for me. I'm just starting up. I will still be able to afford to save while paying my mortgage and maintenance fees, both for investing, RRSP and of course for the odd vacation. I've done the budgeting, and I'm comfortable with how things will turn out in that regard - so the decision to buy has been made.

As far as the next few paragraphs, as much as I'd love to 'extend' myself to live at Yonge and Eglinton, it's just not in the cards. It's a tough balance between location of work, proximity to daily amenities, and entertainment. Y&S wins on the first two, but obviously falters at entertainment... though for me, I don't find the scene at Y+E nearly as exciting downtown, so I always hit the subway on weekends anyway! The charm of the neighbourhood is not in question, though.

The point about traffic isn't so bad as most people are mentioning, as I am commuting north on Yonge to steeles at around 730am and returning home, probably around 430 pm daily down bathurst. I go this route now to get home to Yonge and Eg, and I know that the commute will be 15-20 minutes shorter each day living at yonge and shep. That's alot of time in a week!

The point about day to day living, however, I can't argue much! Indeed, I am aware that Y&S is not Y&E. On the weekends though, I rarely find myself hanging around Y&E I generally head deeper into the city unless it's just a basic 'pub night' with the friends, in which case there are a few pubs in the Y&S area that would hold their own when compared to places like Rose & Crown (ie: Smokey Joe's) or Philthy's for a game (Firkin?).

There are trade-offs, sure, but for my lifestyle - I like to walk to a local coffee shop or grocery store or book store on my day to day (I have these options at Y&S, even the huge library and swimming pool I would not have at Y&E). I go to the gym after work, which will be in the building. I end up taking the subway any time I am 'going out' on the weekend anyway, and being connected directly to a station is something I would not have as a luxury at Y+E. As for the commute to work, well, I won't feel such a crunch as some people are describing since I am not taking the 401 or crossing through Y&S, and I'm a bit earlier than the morning and evening rush hours, just as they start to pick up I am generraly out of dodge.

As for the ford center / sheppard center, I would compare them to the Yonge Eglinton center really. What I would miss are the restaurants at Y+E, and the small shops, however I don't really stop in that often to be honest - lol! And from searching chowhound, it sounds like I'll have some great new food options to try in the Y&S area. Obviously not quite the same level of selection, but I'll likely find places I like just as much - if not, I'll hop on the subway and be back in the old stomping grounds in 12 minutes flat. Most 'good' places are already a 15 minute walk from mt. pleasant and erskine anyway!

I think the point I'm trying to make is that for the day to day routine, Y&S makes sense as a less pricey alternative to Y&E. I would still head downtown to party once in a while, and the proximity to the subway along with basic amenities like grocery, mall, coffee shops and some decent choices in restaurants appeal to me. I see myself staying in this condo for ~5 years until I get married (ladies? *wink) at which point I'll likely get a starter home elsewhere.

Y&S is, for me, a good ($$) alternative to Y&E. Really I've reconciled the differences, and since I'm not willing to bite at a 300K mortgage so I can live at Y+E and barely scrape by month to month, I'll be sacrificing the great neighbourhood that is Y+E so that I can live comfortably with plenty of amenities within walking distance while still saving for my future and have enough left over for some vacations and other kinds of luxuries through the year.

Now! moving on!!! Haha.
It'd be great to hear comments from people who have lived in the Y&S area, any buildings to look at? Last night I browsed a few forums and read nothing but good things about the Ultima towers from past tenants. Anyone else have buildings they may know of in the area that have a positive reputation?

I am also looking for any green space and paths for once the snow melts away, any suggestions?

Thanks

 

[lead82]

Hi Top Rate,

2 years ago I made a similar decision about buying a condo in NYCC, even though I would have preferred to live in the Yonge & Eglinton area. Y&E is definitely more mature and has a nicer scale of buildings plus better street shopping, where as Y&S doesn't yet have any good retail shops. Y&F has some good ethnic places and is maturing as well.

I was debating between Y&S and Y&F to purchase. In my case I wanted a 2br, and back then 2br at Y&S were just over my budget, which was 300K. One of the reasons I chose Y&F was the size of the unit and the view. At Y&S, the condos around Avondale Avenue are too close to the 401 for my liking, and as far as traffic goes, you're limited to accessing Yonge via Avondale which does back up heavily in the morning. I've had friends who lived in the buildings north of Sheppard, such as Ultima, and those are great set of buildings. They really improved the streetscape in that area. I would say Ultima or the Broadway buildings behind it are all pretty good. As I mentioned, for me the choice came down to space. Some of the buildings at Y&F have 2+1 and 3br for reasonable prices, and sometimes about $20K cheaper than Y&S.

As for the area's nitelife, I agree with the other poster that Y&F feels busier at night. Y&S has a small stretch from the Grande theatre to Empress on the east side.

Y&F has many Korean karaoke places and there are always people around the 24hr Shoppers. An added benefit if commuting downtown on weekdays is that you get a seat at Finch, but not at Sheppard. Traffic is not nearly as congested at Y&F as Y&S. Both areas are great and with each new development the areas improve even more. Y&F if bound to get a new parkette on the SE corner. Y&S is being urbanized with the Tridel project and the Bazis project across the street. THere is also Centrium and Gibson Square that will add some more retail and density just north of NYCC. The LRT line on Finch should spur more development up there. The area has good potential to grow into something as nice as Y&E in 5-10 years.

As for green space, there are huge parks close by. If you don't mind a bit of a trek east or west. There is G Ross Park at Dufferin/Finch, Earl Bales at Bath/Shepp or the East Donlands at Leslie and Finch. All good places for a nice bike ride in the summer months. It's too bad NYCC area doesn't have any dedicated bike lanes, mainly because the city councillor John Filion is against them.

 

[UrbanVigor]

As far as preconstruction near yonge and Eg, the only one I'm aware of on Redpath is 83 Redpath - occupancy is slated for Feb 2010 and I haven't been able to find any availability in my price range - don't even know if there is any!

I have a friend who is renting a unit in teh Quantum towers, and I absolutely love the place. Unfortunately, to buy starts at 320K from what I've seen pop up on MLS.

That's the one on Redpath I was referring to. I haven't seen any pricing. You can't go wrong with Quantum, especially in terms of location. But, in general, Y&E costs more.

It sounds like you've taken everything in consideration, are being financially prudent, and know what compromises you are willing to make. I think your shorter commute will help offset those compromises significantly.

 

[Epi]

There's definitely much more life at Yonge and Finch area then at Yonge and Sheppard. If you want to compromise, then Yonge and North York Centre is the way to go. Y&S closes after 5pm generally and is a dead zone once all the office workers go home.

The traffic is also much worse there because of the 401.

 

[Top Rate]

There's definitely much more life at Yonge and Finch area then at Yonge and Sheppard. If you want to compromise, then Yonge and North York Centre is the way to go. Y&S closes after 5pm generally and is a dead zone once all the office workers go home.

The traffic is also much worse there because of the 401.

Thanks Epi, UrbanVigor and Lead82 for your constructive comments. I'm happy to hear there is greenspace nearby, hopefully I can wind a path through sidestreets to get to some of the paths since no bike lanes as Lead82 mentioned.

The Ultima towers are quite close to Yonge and NYCC, maybe this is the best of both worlds? Access to the Sheppard centers (grande, empress walk, grocery) and approx 1 km from finch if asian cuisine/karaoke/more ethnic adventure is on my mind. I was looking at the condos in 7 Bishop, which is right at Yonge and Finch as another option. The building itself plus amenities were truly spectacular, despite being 20 years old. Also have some interest in seeing the units at 153, 155 Beecroft as I've heard positive feedback on those as well.

I truly appreciate the feedback from the board, the vibe I'm getting from those who have lived in the area is positive, despite the unanimous agreement of a certain lack of 'personality' of the area. I hope the new developments will help with that, but in 5 years I may not even be there to enjoy it... however I can always hope the condo values will increase as they get closer to coming online!