Voltz
Senior Member
Low traffic also means fewer riders, how many stops are the buses actually making during that time?
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Finch West Line 6 LRT
- Thread starter Monarch Butterfly
- Start date
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
T3G
Senior Member
If you're on the bus, then sure.
If you're waiting further up the line, I can think of several other, less PG-13 friendly phrases I may choose to use instead.
What's the point of having a schedule if it's not followed?
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
I see your point, but this fixation on schedule lead to a perverse outcome - padding the schedule so much to ensure apparent conformity to it, at the expense of usability. Remember a schedule only truly mattered from the user's perspective if a line is run infrequently. It mattered when you have a ride coming by every 15 minutes - when it is 3 to 4? Not so much.
AoD
T3G
Senior Member
Well, that's why I specified, in my previous post, routes where the line is run infrequently.
Obviously, it makes no difference if a schedule is followed on a route that runs every 2-3 minutes, but that's not what is happening here - it happens on all types of bus routes. And the late night 36 had a top frequency of 10 minutes, so that's exactly the type of environment in which you don't want drivers running hot. What good is it if one person gets to their destination 10 minutes ahead of the scheduled time, if another person misses that same bus due to these same shenanigans and has to wait longer for the next one? And what if the next one breaks down? Now you've got a 20 minute wait time, all because some jackass prioritized going super fast instead of doing his job properly. All this creates is a two tiered form of transit. If you live on the periphery, you get to your destination faster (assuming said jackass doesn't leave the terminus hot too), but along the line, you're given the short end of the stick.
urbanclient
Active Member
I think this is a subjective thing for 10-15 min frequencies, I would much prefer the route be run fast and I end up waiting 18-20 minutes than the opposite, where my average wait time might be lower, but my trip times are consistently slower than the heat death of the universe *cough* *Line 6*. Segue: This is SOP for Chinese metros and regional rail that often don't have clockface/perfectly regular scheduling, but are consistently fast.
More to the point, if the bus rider gets to the stop 10-15 minutes early as is usual for any veteran, they might even catch the previous bus which is running early. Yes, there is a problem ~50% of the time if the route frequency is as bad as 15-20-30-60 minutes, but for the 36 bus specifically, this isn't a problem. Let's keep our focus on Line 6 being a turd.
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T3G
Senior Member
I disagree, 18-20 minute wait times are exactly the sort that would push me to choose the car instead of public transit, and I imagine I'm not the only one. Few people would find it attractive to wait outside that long in the baking heat, freezing cold, or rain.
And getting to the stop 10-15 minutes early strikes me as being fairly excessive for local rapid transit.
James1256
Active Member
Leo_Chan
Senior Member
Has a decision has already been made? The text of the post reads more like a proposal whereas the image looks like an announcement.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Long wait time works so long as the arrival times are consistent and accurate, which would allow for the riders to time when to wait. Otherwise no - the combination between unpredictable availability and the potential for missed rides is deadly. Transfers in this context is also a problem when one of the routes are not on time.
AoD
urbanclient
Active Member
You are speaking from a perspective of privilege. Many people don't own a car/can't afford to (especially given the car and insurance prices). There is a reason why the 36 bus was the most used bus route pre-covid.
For many, including myself before I turned 17, I wasn't able to just go hop in a car on a whim. I normally got to my bus stop 15-20 minutes early for the bus that came every 30 min to 1 hour. Would I rather risk waiting an extra 50 minutes or cancel my plans, or wait an extra 5-10 minutes?
You sound like you have not regularly, if ever taken the bus in a very long time, certainly not outside of Toronto proper. My point about getting to the stop 15-20 minutes holds true even in Toronto, whether it be buses that arrive too early at night, or buses that are mired in traffic during the day.
The 36 bus is local transit, nothing is rapid in Toronto except for the 3 subway lines, UP Express, and arguably some GO lines for some part of the day/week.
If driving a car had no economic costs, only benefits, we would all be driving cars, all the time.
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T3G
Senior Member
Even then, there's a lot of asterisks I would apply. Sure, you can time your journey from your door to the stop, but on the way back, you seldom have such an option. Especially at a lot of suburban transfer locations. If you're going to force people to wait long times, you must have climate controlled waiting areas.
To give an example, Milton GO station was rebuilt from late August to late September, during which process they knocked down the old bus shelters and erected new ones, but as of the last time I was there (Dec 1), they have yet to finish them, and passengers can't use them. The waiting areas on the GO platform are locked in the afternoon, and the station building has such limited operating hours that it may as well not exist, so my options were either to wait in an open bus shelter, when the temperature was below freezing, for around 15 minutes, or to ask a family member to pick me up. I know which option I chose.
A complaint has been filed with GO about the fact that in the span of two months they couldn't finish the bus shelters (and I have never seen any workers in them), but whether that will achieve anything remains to be seen.
Incorrect.
I moved to Canada 25 years ago and at the time we were so poor we had no alternative options but to use transit, in Scarborough. Today, my family of 5 is a one car family, and as a consequence I am a daily user of the Milton GO bus. Which blows chunks. I can count on two hands the number of times I've been at liberty to use our car instead of making an outlandishly long journey by transit this year, or worse, had to cancel altogether (as the Milton - Oakville bus does not run on weekends).
Doesn't mean it's acceptable to hold those who don't have a car hostage with bad frequencies. Just because lots of people who rely on poor quality bus services are poor doesn't make it acceptable to give them the bare minimum of service and pat ourselves on the back and say we did our job. Having to take the bus shouldn't be a tax on being poor.
Northern Light
Superstar
As with the Mayor the Minister is unambiguously saying the LRT must and will get faster.
That link, passed on to me, was sent by someone senior in government, indicating a desire to put out the message "We hear you, we're on it" .
That link, passed on to me, was sent by someone senior in government, indicating a desire to put out the message "We hear you, we're on it" .
urbanclient
Active Member
I never encouraged bad frequencies for transit, I said even for the 10-15 minute bus network in Toronto, getting to the stop 15-20 minutes early is a habit that I like to adhere to. Otherwise, how am I supposed to get to my destination on time if the bus ends up being slow after I get on; and as said before, I can often catch a bus that is running early or an earlier bus that is incredibly late. Whether its a low-traffic night or rush-hour afternoon, getting to the bus stop very early can't hurt anybody, and I suspect a lot of people do the same. Comparing the Milton GO to city buses is not an apples to apples to comparison.
Back to the original topic, if you get to the stop 10 minutes early for a 10 minute frequency 36 bus at night, you either catch the earlier scheduled bus or you catch the bus that is running faster than scheduled. If you get to the stop exactly on-time, you would end up catching the next bus which is also running early. 3 buses with 5 - 15 minute frequencies. The issue you mentioned about buses running faster than scheduled is only a problem if you are trying to catch the last and first bus of the day/TTC time period.
Look at the end terminus arrival time gaps in the 4th column for these speedracer 36 bus drivers, almost all the gaps are below 15 minutes, with one exception due to one bus that never completed the trip, between 00:06 and 00:28. And that's for the end terminus, the actual schedule deviance is going to be smaller the closer you are to the starting terminus.
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Northern Light
Superstar
I'm putting this here, rather than the Bikeshare thread, as I have a question for those who have taken the new LRT.
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Bikeshare has not yet reinstalled any of its stations directly along the Finch West Line 6 route; which were removed to facilitate wrap-up of the project.
My question for riders here, is the road still a mess or does the sidewalk/boulevard area appear complete? It seems bizarre to have opened the line, implying project completion, yet have no Bikeshare integration on a route that was well served until 2 months ago.
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Bikeshare has not yet reinstalled any of its stations directly along the Finch West Line 6 route; which were removed to facilitate wrap-up of the project.
My question for riders here, is the road still a mess or does the sidewalk/boulevard area appear complete? It seems bizarre to have opened the line, implying project completion, yet have no Bikeshare integration on a route that was well served until 2 months ago.