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Finch West Line 6 LRT

turini2 said:
On Finch, that ship has sailed my friend.
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Exactly At some point, "What they could have done instead" becomes a fantasy discussion and belongs in another thread.

Personally I am eager to see this project come on line and hoping it makes a positive contribution to the city. Maybe velocity can be managed constructively, and very likely the line will stimulate densification. I hope the streetscape becomes a nicer one. Time will tell, but I'm looking forward not backwards.

I'd push for it on other routes - but the introduction of trolleybuses like that as part of "bus rapid transit" in Toronto is always going to struggle as due to:
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To your list I would add
- TTC's penchant for allowing crowding on bus routes, due to poor spacing and schedule mismanagement
- lack of attention to ride quality, combined with the above crowding. Bus lanes allow buses to go faster, meaning they sway more and make standee ride quality border on unsafe. The one good thing about slow buses in traffic is, people don't get thrown around much when the bus is crawling. Toronto's bad roads don't help. Any BRT needs to provide a stable road surface and cautious driver behaviour so that ride quality matches LRT. And maybe need fewer standee rides.

- Paul
 
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turini2 said:
On Finch, that ship has sailed my friend.

I'd push for it on other routes - but the introduction of trolleybuses like that as part of "bus rapid transit" in Toronto is always going to struggle as due to:
  • the cost of building a new bus yard big enough to service these loooooong buses
  • cost of putting up wires (when politicians will argue that artic battery buses are now available)
  • lack of all door boarding
  • no trolleybus network at present means you'd be buying vehicles for just 1 corridor (whereas regular buses can be used across the city)
Regardless, future upgrades of busy bus corridors in Toronto needs to follow international best practice - dedicated lanes, signal priority, all door boarding, level boarding with high quality stops, decent branding etc.
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I was responding to a post asking to “please share” less expensive solutions for increasing capacity on busy bus routes? Obviously I know the Finch West LRT is already built, but there are many other similar routes in this city.

Also, I specifically chose a non trolleybus for one of the photos. You don’t need overhead wires to have a longer bus.
 
The idea that "LRT has lower operating expenses" is questionable, unfortunately. Just recently, the city was asking for additional money from the province to begin the operation of Finch LRT and Eglinton LRT. If the operating expenses were lower than the buses being replaced, then such a request would have no ground.

The driver salaries expense may be lower, but the additional fleet and track maintenance expenses might overweight those savings. Hopefully we will discover if this is the case when Finch LRT begins its operation.

Nothing wrong with Finch LRT getting built (compared to a BRT alternative). The extra cost is not that big compared to multiple subways in the pipeline now. Operationally, LRT has certain advantages. Strategically, the city will benefit from having a real life LRT showcase where all factors: speed, capacity, operating expenses, and even the impact on the density near the line, can be measured.

The future decisions about the LRT vs BRT on other major arterials should be made based on those measurements. We must not assume that LRT is always better because it is cool and fashionable.
 
The idea that "LRT has lower operating expenses" is questionable, unfortunately. Just recently, the city was asking for additional money from the province to begin the operation of Finch LRT and Eglinton LRT. If the operating expenses were lower than the buses being replaced, then such a request would have no ground.

The driver salaries expense may be lower, but the additional fleet and track maintenance expenses might overweight those savings. Hopefully we will discover if this is the case when Finch LRT begins its operation.
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Is the TTC doing the maintenance on the Finch LRT? I thought Metrolinx had contracted out any future capital maintenance to a third-party, so a different arrangement than Eglinton. Or am I conflating that with something else?
 
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sche said:
I was responding to a post asking to “please share” less expensive solutions for increasing capacity on busy bus routes? Obviously I know the Finch West LRT is already built, but there are many other similar routes in this city.

Also, I specifically chose a non trolleybus for one of the photos. You don’t need overhead wires to have a longer bus.
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Ah, in the photo of the yellow bus - I saw the overhead wires of the train station that confused me. Complete understand that you don't need wires for a loooong bus.
I'd love to see a Mercedes Benz Citaro CapaCity L on Canadian streets...
 
T3G said:
LRT was "cool and fashionable" back in the days of transit city. These days, grade separated automated light metro is what's hip. We don't want full capacity subway cars or transit driver jobs!
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If LRT was ever “cool and fashionable” Rob Ford would never have become mayor. He won on mocking LRTs and comparing them to streetcars which were an attack on the poor people in the suburbs. Once again finch is averaging 650m spacing where as typical streetcar routes are less than 250m.
 
sixrings said:
If LRT was ever “cool and fashionable” Rob Ford would never have become mayor. He won on mocking LRTs and comparing them to streetcars which were an attack on the poor people in the suburbs. Once again finch is averaging 650m spacing where as typical streetcar routes are less than 250m.
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That's not my recollection. And I doubt most people even thought about it.

The factors in my recollection were the garbage strike, a lack of any realistic alternatives, and the Toronto Star having spent 2 to 3 years trashing Miller frequently.
 
nfitz said:
That's not my recollection. And I doubt most people even thought about it.

The factors in my recollection were the garbage strike, a lack of any realistic alternatives, and the Toronto Star having spent 2 to 3 years trashing Miller frequently.
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Correct. Trashing Miller on being a LRT fanboy. The garbage strike was insane especially when in the end he was going to cave to them for the pan am games but Scarborough won ford the election based on cancelling the sheppard lrt and rt to lrt conversion for the all glorious and expensive subway.
 
sixrings said:
Correct. Trashing Miller on being a LRT fanboy.
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There might have been something, but nothing really sticks in my mind. It certainly wasn't the focus.

sixrings said:
... Scarborough won ford the election based on cancelling the sheppard lrt and rt to lrt conversion for the all glorious and expensive subway.
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Ford did not get elected because of LRT.

His proposal didn't do anything for much of the city, simply extending Line 2 from Victoria Park, up the SRT route to McCown. And finishing Line 4 (the same Line 4 plan that Miller had been pushing during his first term). I must say that building Willowdale station between Bayview and Bessarion and closing Coxwell station was unique though.

Meanwhile it cancelled Line 5 and Line 6 completely, with no alternatives. And would have put an end to the recently started Downtown Relief Line consultations.

Yeah, it might have picked up a few votes in Scarborough. At the same time, cancelling Finch did seem to hurt him in Ward 8. But the election wasn't close.

1708732274996.png
 
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T3G said:
LRT was "cool and fashionable" back in the days of transit city. These days, grade separated automated light metro is what's hip. We don't want full capacity subway cars or transit driver jobs!
Click to expand...

I don't think we are going to get a lot of light metro lines. Yes, some saving on the labor cost, but the construction costs even more than LRT. So far, it is just the Ontario Line (and probably underbuilt for the future demand).

Light metro could work on Sheppard, but looks like Sheppard will retain the existing full capacity subway tech.

For the low-key, local transit improvements along the major arterials - the best bet is BRT, and in some cases LRT.
 
Rainforest said:
I don't think we are going to get a lot of light metro lines. Yes, some saving on the labor cost, but the construction costs even more than LRT. So far, it is just the Ontario Line (and probably underbuilt for the future demand).

Light metro could work on Sheppard, but looks like Sheppard will retain the existing full capacity subway tech.

For the low-key, local transit improvements along the major arterials - the best bet is BRT, and in some cases LRT.
Click to expand...

Light metro seems to be the future for any new "metro" lines in North America. I can't think of a brand new heavy rail subway line being planned anywhere in NA.
 
Rainforest said:
I don't think we are going to get a lot of light metro lines. Yes, some saving on the labor cost, but the construction costs even more than LRT. So far, it is just the Ontario Line (and probably underbuilt for the future demand).

Light metro could work on Sheppard, but looks like Sheppard will retain the existing full capacity subway tech.

For the low-key, local transit improvements along the major arterials - the best bet is BRT, and in some cases LRT.
Click to expand...

goodcitywhenfinished said:
Light metro seems to be the future for any new "metro" lines in North America. I can't think of a brand new heavy rail subway line being planned anywhere in NA.
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Not to detract too much from the topic of Finch West LRT, but I find it quite intriguing that "light metro" has still been used to describe the Ontario Line rolling stock. While they are smaller than the metro that Toronto is used to, they function fully as "regular" metro internationally, and are still larger (wider) than the rolling stock used in the London Underground and Paris Metro. Metrolinx is still doing themselves a disservice by comparing it to the SkyTrain. Anyway, feel free to PM me to continue this discussion offline.
 
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