Finch West Line 6 LRT

[TheTigerMaster]

120 according to Metrolinx.

Sad to see that aren't going to be sticking to TTC standards for rapid transit.

View attachment 133060

Hmm, guess they weren’t exaggerating when they said you’d always be able to find a seat.

Anyways a major transit service that operates at 7 to 10 mins frequency is just sad. That’s half the frequency of current Finch West services. With service that infrequent, trips on the FWLRT might end up being slower than the Finch bus for many customers.

Hopefully Metrolinx gives the TTC free reign over service standards. I don’t believe Metrolinx has a clue how to operate a transit service in the City of Toronto, and I fear that they’ll apply the same standard to Toronto that they do to various suburban municipalities.

 

[nfitz]

Hopefully Metrolinx gives the TTC free reign over service standards.

Though reading the current 2017 TTC service standards, it does say 6 minutes (for all time periods) with a note that 'New rapid transit lines may have a frequency of up to 10 minutes in the first few years of operation until ridership matures'.

 

[Voltz]

Presumably they are going with 90-metre platforms, now that they've selected a 45-metre car, rather than the planned length.

Particularly with them only running every 5 minutes at peak, with 45-metre cars that have 120 seats, and no one standing.

The EA had a peak point of 130 people every 2:45 and 260 every 5:30. So to only run every 5 minutes will be 236 passengers. Which requires 2 cars, with 118 sitting in each one.

But weren't they ordering fewer Alston than Bombardier cars, that would have run in pairs?

 

[nfitz]

But weren't they ordering fewer Alston than Bombardier cars, that would have run in pairs?

No - same amount for Finch West.

17 cars.

But being 50% longer, the price has near tripled gone up from $4.3 million per car to $12 million per car.

From $73 million to $204 million. Gosh, I'm sure glad that Metrolinx stepped in and saved us, because we all know that once already ramped up, that BBD couldn't knock out 17 cars in a year, after Waterloo and Eglinton production is already finished.

It would be really funny if Alstom is late, but BBD gets Eglinton in time for the September 2021 opening.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Hmm, guess they weren’t exaggerating when they said you’d always be able to find a seat.

Anyways a major transit service that operates at 7 to 10 mins frequency is just sad. That’s half the frequency of current Finch West services. With service that infrequent, trips on the FWLRT might end up being slower than the Finch bus for many customers.

Hopefully Metrolinx gives the TTC free reign over service standards. I don’t believe Metrolinx has a clue how to operate a transit service in the City of Toronto, and I fear that they’ll apply the same standard to Toronto that they do to various suburban municipalities.

There is 10 minutes on some New York Subway lines at noon (see link). 20 minutes on the Atlanta Marta after 8 pm (see link). If you're used to Toronto's headway service, you'll be very sad when you visit those cities and use their rapid transit in the non-peak hours.

Must not forget that Finch West is not downtown...

...in this century. Maybe next century, it will be "downtown".

 

[TheTigerMaster]

No - same amount for Finch West.

17 cars.

But being 50% longer, the price has near tripled gone up from $4.3 million per car to $12 million per car.

From $73 million to $204 million. Gosh, I'm sure glad that Metrolinx stepped in and saved us, because we all know that once already ramped up, that BBD couldn't knock out 17 cars in a year, after Waterloo and Eglinton production is already finished.

It would be really funny if Alstom is late, but BBD gets Eglinton in time for the September 2021 opening.

Did we really spend roughy $125 Million just so Metrolinx could save face?

 

[BurlOak]

Did we really spend roughy $125 Million just so Metrolinx could save face?

Cheaper than a Gas Plant that's not built.

Is there an outstanding lawsuit as well - which is maybe not associated only with Finch West, but might be put in the bucket of "saving face cost".

 

[rbt]

Did we really spend roughy $125 Million just so Metrolinx could save face?

Pretty close. There was a trivial savings from the Bombardier contract; whatever 18 months operations costs. The fascinating part is it worked very well; even on this forum where all of the details were posted.

I wouldn't be surprised if controlling the news release was a higher priority for Metrolinx in the Bombardier negotiations than the new vehicle price.

 

[nfitz]

Did we really spend roughly $125 Million just so Metrolinx could save face?

More than that total. About $150 million overall.

However, looking at the match, I made 3 errors. First, the Alstom cars are about $8.5 million ($528 for 62) not $12 million. Secondly, there were 23 Flexitys for Finch West, not 17. Also the total Bombardier price was $770 million for 182 (according to the Star) not $778. So Bombardier cars were $4.2 million not $4.3 million.

So we've gone from $97 million for 23 Flexitys to $145 million for 17 Alstom cars. The price has gone up 50%.

But that $48 million increase is just the Finch West cost. Because the Bombardier order was reduced from 182 cars to 76 cars, Bombardier also got to increase the cost per car (to cover fixed costs, and lost profit) to $5.2 million ($392 million for 76). So they are making an extra $70.5 million on the Eglinton cars.

And there's the further $383 million that Metrolinx is spending on the other 45 Alstom cars - nominally for Mississauga and Hamilton. That's instead of buying 83 Bombardier cars (35 for Sheppard East, and 48 for the SRT) for $351 million. So another $32 million, and that's ignoring that they are only buying 4/5 of the capacity.

The total cost then is about an extra $150 million. And given the capacity of the other 45 Alstom cars is less than the cancelled 83 SELRT/SRT cars by about 15 Flexitys, then that's another $63 million out the window at the original Alstom price. Or $85 million if they to buy 10 Alstom cars instead at some point.

So total blown on this is about $213 to $235 million.

Pretty close. There was a trivial savings from the Bombardier contract; whatever 18 months operations costs.

Not sure what you are referring to here.

 

[rbt]

Not sure what you are referring to here.

The re-negotiated Bombardier agreement included an 18 month GO operations component that did not exist previously for the same price tag as the original order. Since that's something Metrolinx would almost certainly have purchased anyway, it should count as savings on the Bombardier order. It's pretty minor though.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

More than that total. About $150 million overall.

However, looking at the match, I made 3 errors. First, the Alstom cars are about $8.5 million ($528 for 62) not $12 million. Secondly, there were 23 Flexitys for Finch West, not 17. Also the total Bombardier price was $770 million for 182 (according to the Star) not $778. So Bombardier cars were $4.2 million not $4.3 million.

So we've gone from $97 million for 23 Flexitys to $145 million for 17 Alstom cars. The price has gone up 50%.

But that $48 million increase is just the Finch West cost. Because the Bombardier order was reduced from 182 cars to 76 cars, Bombardier also got to increase the cost per car (to cover fixed costs, and lost profit) to $5.2 million ($392 million for 76). So they are making an extra $70.5 million on the Eglinton cars.

And there's the further $383 million that Metrolinx is spending on the other 45 Alstom cars - nominally for Mississauga and Hamilton. That's instead of buying 83 Bombardier cars (35 for Sheppard East, and 48 for the SRT) for $351 million. So another $32 million, and that's ignoring that they are only buying 4/5 of the capacity.

The total cost then is about an extra $150 million. And given the capacity of the other 45 Alstom cars is less than the cancelled 83 SELRT/SRT cars by about 15 Flexitys, then that's another $63 million out the window at the original Alstom price. Or $85 million if they to buy 10 Alstom cars instead at some point.

So total blown on this is about $213 to $235 million.

Not sure what you are referring to here.

I still can’t wrap my head around how Metrolinx screwed this up so bad. I’ve yet to come across a rational explanation for this. This should be the new gas plant.

 

[nfitz]

The re-negotiated Bombardier agreement included an 18 month GO operations component that did not exist previously for the same price tag as the original order. Since that's something Metrolinx would almost certainly have purchased anyway, it should count as savings on the Bombardier order. It's pretty minor though.

Ah yes. Forgot about that.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's another extension or two coming ...

 

[Sandpit]

I still can’t wrap my head around how Metrolinx screwed this up so bad. I’ve yet to come across a rational explanation for this. This should be the new gas plant.

Metrolinx was afraid the LRT projects were going to be cancelled by the PCs and wanted to tie their hands. Then the PCs announced they weren't' going to cancel any lines...

 

[BurlOak]

Metrolinx was afraid the LRT projects were going to be cancelled by the PCs and wanted to tie their hands. Then the PCs announced they weren't' going to cancel any lines...

Metrolinx was set up to be an independant transit agency and working to bring all municipalities together.

Are you suggesting there is political interference? Is everyone expecting major shake-ups at Metrolinx as the Liberal bagmen (and women) are replaced by people who know what they are doing.

 

[Sandpit]

Metrolinx was set up to be an independant transit agency and working to bring all municipalities together.

Are you suggesting there is political interference? Is everyone expecting major shake-ups at Metrolinx as the Liberal bagmen (and women) are replaced by people who know what they are doing.

By "tie their hands" I didn't mean "make things difficult for the PCs". I meant both Metrolinx and the Liberals want to ensure that the LRT lines are built regardless of who is in government, because they genuinely believe that it's in Toronto's best interests. Not everything is a political calculation: yes the biggest goal for the Liberals is to remain in power, but they also want to actually make Ontario a better place.