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Father Accused of Murdering "Disobedient" Mississauga Teen

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Western norms of behaviour? What about everyone's an individual, yuk-yuk, whatnot? It seems the only thing normal about Western behaviour is absolute fear of outside influences. The highly conservative, unilateral representation of facts, viewpoints, pundents, commentators, celebrities, etc. is only indicative of how messed up a culture Canadiana's based on. We're Canadian because we're anti-American. We're Quebecois because we're anti-British. See? Our identity exists only as the antithesis of other cultural identies. Morality aside, we have no right to kill someone who disagrees with our views, but its equally offensive to insinuate every immigrant who comes here must relenquish their soul and being to fit in as clones. Clones of what exactly? To be continued...

Dentrobate, who are you to say that this girl should be forced to live her life as a "clone" of some culture from thousands of kilometres away? If indeed she was murdered because she refused to follow her father's demands for her behaviour, I'd say that's a rather bigger violation of her individual rights than the rights of the father to impose his will on another human being.

Where are you getting figures on the number of visible minorities in Parliament? Are you just making this up? As for the number of women, it dropped by 1 out of 308.
 
Dentrobate, who are you to say that this girl should be forced to live her life as a "clone" of some culture from thousands of kilometres away?

000s of miles away? Okay, now I get it. There is a latent undercurrent of Islamophobia in Canada. I'll give every Muslim in Canada the memo that some culture indigenous to their heritage has nothing to do the cultural mosiac that's supposed to be Canada's pluralist agenda :rolleyes:.

Aqsa was obviously torn between two identities. She left home in traditional Muslim garb and showed up at school a typical, 'normal-looking' adolescent. In spite of her attempts to fit in, her friends stated that she was often teased as a 'poser', i.e. whitewashed self-hating minority. She shouldn't have had to clone herself to either her father's point-of-view or be assimilist to garner friends.

For immigrants, as with all parents, they hope that their children will have a better existence then they had. For some that means shielding them from the harshness of an uncertain secular world, culture or lifestyle. When her father kicked her out, she could've returned in accordance to his house rules, at least until she could support herself and move out for good.

Again it's a pity it escalated to Asqa's death but to place sole blame on one frustrated individual, when a combination of outside pressures/influences more likely caused a temporary lapse in sanity, is disgraceful. Some people just won't tolerate disrespect in their homes. Who are we to say that conformity to societal norms is paramount to taking a stance for one's personal beliefs?
 
Aqsa was obviously torn between two identities. She left home in traditional Muslim garb and showed up at school a typical, 'normal-looking' adolescent. In spite of her attempts to fit in, her friends stated that she was often teased as a 'poser', i.e. whitewashed self-hating minority. She shouldn't have had to clone herself to either her father's point-of-view or be assimilist to garner friends.

Again it's a pity it escalated to Asqa's death but to place sole blame on one frustrated individual, when a combination of outside pressures/influences more likely caused a temporary lapse in sanity, is disgraceful. Some people just won't tolerate disrespect in their homes. Who are we to say that conformity to societal norms is paramount to taking a stance for one's personal beliefs?


The father of this young woman murdered her because she would not do what he wanted her to do. He killed her, not outside influences. He made choices because he refused to see otherwise. The point is he made a choice. Trying to condemn society as a whole for the actions of individuals is to begin the process of denying individual human agency.

The attempt to place blame directly on supposed outside pressure/influences has no merit because you are only imagining that this happened, or had a direct role. Do you have any specific or direct insight into exactly what the father was thinking? Do you have intimate knowledge of what this young woman was experiencing? Do you have an encompassing understanding of all the dynamics surrounding the intersections of cultural beliefs and human emotions?

No doubt there were pressures in this woman's life. That is nothing unusual to teenagers. As for her father, the excuse of lapsed sanity is just a nice way of saying he could not get the obedience he though appropriate, and then acted out in rage. He'll never get that obedience now, will he?
 
Aqsa was obviously torn between two identities. She left home in traditional Muslim garb and showed up at school a typical, 'normal-looking' adolescent.

If what we've heard is true, she was torn between two things alright: acting the way she wants, and acting the way her father tried to force her.
 
The idea that some cultures would want to import a tradition of murder is simply false, and Muslims the world over are trying to make this clear. The idea that we have to protest this crime as "unacceptable" is ludicrous. This man committed murder. I don't see anyone defending him.

Muslims, the world over, have not been very successful in this message: fatwas, suicide bombings, jihad, honour killings and public floggings do not send a message of tolerance and peace. I understand that there are crackpots out there, of all nationalities and stripes, but we are quick to denounce them and reaffirm what we know is right (one step back, two steps forward...). This maintains perspective, and this is why I think it is important for a community to risk vulnerability and come out honestly and address its issues.


Nice in theory, but impossible in practice. It would involve getting into people's homes and interfering with the way they raise their children. What right do we have?

People do not have the right to mistreat their children either, or their wives/spouses for that matter. A man does not have the right to bed his wife against her will, and a man does not have a right to force a religious practice onto anyone. This would be contrary to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the basic laws of the land. Anybody who cannot abide by these concepts, in good faith, should not be welcome in our society.

You're absolutely correct though that it is difficult to police these issues, which are domestic issues and tend to be silent and insidious, but this is all the more reason why we must not waver on the message. It must be clear and unambiguous that these things are unacceptable, regardless of religious or cultural practice.


It's a bit arrogant and often mistaken to think that we're the champions of democracy and civil rights. I say this especially because we've seen so many violations of civil rights here recently, but also, all of the Muslim immigrants I have met have a perfect understanding of these things.

It is not arrogance, it is the objective truth. The concepts and values of democracy and civil rights were born in the west, in Europe and North America. We are among the few rare places in this world that offer freedom from religious persecution, the democratic right to vote, equality for women, the right to marry for gays, racial and religious freedom. Are these perfect? Absolutely not! Again, it is always two steps forward and one step backward. Still, we should not be cavalier about what has been achieved here, or dismiss it as 'arrogance'. And we must not be willing to give it up because we might be afraid of offending new residents to Canada that come from places in the world that do not value these things.


Your ideals are admirable, but I would argue that Canada has become a place where we need to strive for harmony in diversity. This means not assuming that our values are the same, but that our differing values come out of many diverse (and sometimes incompatible) ideals. Canada has never been a place where people immigrate to assimilate into a mold that makes us all the same.

I fundamentally disagree. Generations of people from all over the world have come here to be Canadian and enjoy the freedoms and values here. I do not believe that the spirit of multiculturalism that Canada embraces implies that Canadians must be tolerant of 'everything'. Multiculturalism is the ideal that says that *all* who are willing to respect the laws of Canada, enjoy the rights but also accept the responsibilities, are welcome here. In other words, you can practice your religion, but you cannot force it on someone else; and you can practice your religion if your doing so does not infringe on anyone else's rights. This is a fundamentally different understanding of pluralism in Canada, than the apocryphal belief that Canada will politely tolerate anything in the name of multiculturalism.



This whole discussion has nothing to do with political correctness. It is about avoiding falling into the trap of stereotyping - and there are examples of that in this very thread. It is indeed an attack on Islam (not by you, I understand), as the debate in the mass media quickly turns to discussion of banning the hijab, when instead we should be focusing on domestic violence.

I agree that the attack on Islam is unfortunate. Muslims are fairly recent newcomers to Canada, relatively speaking, and their coming here raises issues about our willingness to be tolerant and practice what we preach, so to speak. This is our challenge, and the outcome will reveal whether a multicultural society can truly exist. That said, the problem isn't one-sided. People coming to Canada must be aware of our laws, and therefore our values. If these are not acceptable then they should consider other options for immigration. If these are acceptable, then welcome!!


This again assumes that Aqsa's murder was based on religion, an idea that the vast majority of Muslims deny. All religions, as practised by people I know, are indeed compatible with a "modern, pluralist, free and democratic society".

It is difficult to paint all muslims with the same brush, as there is a great deal of cultural diversity throughout the muslim world and not all cultural groups practice the same things or believe the same things. The practices in Afghanistan or Pakistan are extremely different than those in Saudi Arabia or Algeria or Jordan, for example. I suspect, however, that there is a little denial within the community on this issue and I continue to maintain that the denouncing of violence against women is important for Muslim Canadians, as it is a reaffirmation of both Islam and Canadian values. This is not unique to Muslims, however, we must all collectively continue to denounce what is dangerous to our values as a society.

Be wary of media personalities such as Irshad Manji, who is an apologist for the Muslim community. Every community has someone like this, who gains popularity by saying the things that those outside the community want to hear. I do not know any Muslims who respect her views.

I find this to be a sad commentary.
 
2. Hijab

It is a symbol of respect, faith, and honour for some and a symbol of oppression, tradition, and patriarchy for others. Some Muslim girls and women choose to wear it or not, others are forced to wear it implicitly by the weight of tradition or explicitly by family members. Those who are more traditional seem to think it mandatory while others consider it a matter of choice. In such a situation, the position that Canada currently holds on the issue of hijab is the right one; to leave the choice to the individual. For any state to intervene and make it either mandatory to veil or unveil goes against fundamental rights of the individual. Those who propose banning the hijab seem to not notice that they are acting exactly in the way religious fundamentalists would act. Islamic fundamentalists want to force Muslim women to wear the hijab; “Freedom” fundamentalists (like Kay or the French government) want to force Muslim women to not wear the hijab. Both fundamentalists want to impose their choice upon Muslim women and are unwilling to give them any autonomy to exercise their free will. Both think that Muslim women obviously don’t know what is good for them and thus they have to be decided for.

To clarify, your friend advocates choice to the individual on wearing the hijab or other religiious matters, rather than make it the decision of a patriarchy or cultural background correct? While you feel differently to his opinion and Tewder's and these Canadian institutions?
 
DENTROBATE54, I see you're up to your contrarian ways here as well. I swear, all you do is skim the posts, and disagree with everything everyone says here. If it's so disagreeable, why visit? I'll tell you what, you'll never find a more open minded group than the majority of folks here on UT, so why not open your mind to considering other points of view (and that means considering that you might be wrong, not considering and discounting everything). I'm beginning to smell a troll....MOD?

As a parent, I do not force anything upon my children beyond the need for hard work, taking full responsibility and ownership of your actions (both good and bad), don't steal or cheat, be honest and accountable to yourself and others, respect those that respect you (or that will respect you once you earn it, such as employers, teachers, etc.), don't judge people by their appearance (I remind myself of this one when necessary), think before you speak or act, have fun every day, have life goals, be open minded and love and enjoy life, when you grow up always have your own money and employment, do not depend exclusively on a man for your well being or safety. I can't imagine telling my daughter that she's bad or that her family would be ashamed because she doesn't wear a cloth on her head, or her skirts too short or she has too many earings, or whatever. If it's good enough for her, and she's taken some of my lessons above into account, then it's good enough for me.
 
I fundamentally disagree. Generations of people from all over the world have come here to be Canadian and enjoy the freedoms and values here. I do not believe that the spirit of multiculturalism that Canada embraces implies that Canadians must be tolerant of 'everything'. Multiculturalism is the ideal that says that *all* who are willing to respect the laws of Canada, enjoy the rights but also accept the responsibilities, are welcome here. In other words, you can practice your religion, but you cannot force it on someone else; and you can practice your religion if your doing so does not infringe on anyone else's rights. This is a fundamentally different understanding of pluralism in Canada, than the apocryphal belief that Canada will politely tolerate anything in the name of multiculturalism.

Well put.
 
I see you're up to your contrarian ways here as well. I swear, all you do is skim the posts, and disagree with everything everyone says here. If it's so disagreeable, why visit? I'll tell you what, you'll never find a more open minded group than the majority of folks here on UT, so why not open your mind to considering other points of view (and that means considering that you might be wrong, not considering and discounting everything). I'm beginning to smell a troll....MOD?

Well you're wrong. This thread is more or less an continuation of the black-focused schools debate only now it's about the stereotyping, exclusion and xenophobia of Muslim cultural values instead of blacks and how alienation from the system drove one family into disaster. Do you think it's easy for me to put my highly nonconformist yet objective personal thoughts out there for the world of UT to judge me? I feel it's necessary though becuase I've witnessed personally the painful ill-effects of not being of 'superior' Aryan blood in this country and the hardships several have faced because of it. I'm not blaming any one person or even a collective societal norm. It's just that ignoring the issue resolves nothing. Talking about it, informs the misinformed or the apathetic that injustices we so readily criticize other nations for, occur in our own backyard unaccounted for.

I'm as open-minded as they come which is why I'm willing to wear my heart on my sleeve debating these ugly issues. I feel like I'm the voice of the voiceless, the unsung and the oppressed. Just because I don't always agree with you, doesn't mean I don't value your opinion. I only hope some of that patented UT wisdom and open-mindedness is extended to my views once in a while since it's no joke that Canada's facade of pro-tolerance multiculturalism only goes so far with a Post-9/11 "Us" vs. "Them" state of paranoia. Such that our non-white neighbours so easily can be wrongly villified for just living out their lives on their own terms.

Much the way alot of posters inferred blacks/Muslims should adopt Western lifestyles at the expense of indigenous traits/aspects of self it's equally important to have a nonpartisan view that universal assimilation stonewalls personal and communal human progress since innovation/borrowing from other cultures/ways of doing things is frowned upon or evoke fear in conservative, unilateral mindsets. My point is I'm not the bad guy here, I just see things from a different perspective and am forunate to have somewhere like this to express those and simultaneously benefit from your opinions.
 
I feel like I'm the voice of the voiceless, the unsung and the oppressed.


My point is I'm not the bad guy here, I just see things from a different perspective and am forunate to have somewhere like this to express those and simultaneously benefit from your opinions.

Though the way you do so is as if someone in UT sent you this card
simpsonschoochoovalentine.jpg
 
I feel like I'm the voice of the voiceless, the unsung and the oppressed.

Maybe they're voiceless because you keep talking over them and acting as if you know all about who is oppressed, why they are oppressed, what they are thinking and what they are feeling.
 
In electoral terms, it's like many an "independent" fringe candidate. Claiming to speak for the many, yet supported by few if any.

Agreement with the issues is one thing, endorsing a particular dispatcher of said issues is another...
 
Much the way alot of posters inferred blacks/Muslims should adopt Western lifestyles
No one has inferred that here. What we're saying is that everyone is an individual, and an individual's culture and identity are far more than the sum of their parents' culture, and that everyone should be free to choose their own path and which cultural traits they wish to follow or reject.
 
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