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Families in Toronto

So much for the unaffordable housing theory, these are some of the more affordable neighbourhoods in town.

My understanding is that TDSB reviews schools in geographic groups and these are the ones that currently happen to be under review, rather than the top of a list of the "most-closable" schools. Reviewing groups of schools is (I believe) a rolling program. One of the elementaries in our area was proposed for closing last year, the local parents fought it and it is now under the radar for the next 5 years simply because the spotlight won't return to our area of SW region until then.

AmJ
 
European and Asian cities are cited to be most family-friendly. I don't know about Asian cities. However, in Europe the propensity for families to remain in the down-town core is not universal - Paris, yes very very common for families to remain. However in London, middle and upper class families move out to the Home counties 'burbs as soon as their kids are school age.
When I think about the differences, it seems to me that cities in countries were home-ownership is the aspiration (UK) people move out to the 'burbs once they have kids while in countries were renting is the most common was of acquiring an abode families can afford to stay.

Even in our "family-friendly" area (couples move from the Annex to start families here) many families move further out once the kids are about 10-ish. Apparently the bedrooms are too small in 1920's houses for teenagers and kids need more than 10x10 bedrooms and their own bathrooms to go through teenage angst. As a European I find this a crazy "need" for space... but my child is a few years off of teenage...
-AmJ
 
Looking at the map that was published in the Star showing the potential school, none of it was in the core. This one from the Globe looks similiar - http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ol-closings-are-fait-accompli/article1339407/

Mostly Scarborough, a cluster west of York University, and a cluster in the Eglinton/Dufferin/Bathurst area.

I'm in the Gerrard/Woodbine area ... and the number of kids around here always amazes me. You can't walk down the sidewalks in the daytime without dodging strollers. Lots of young families - we have a 2-year old, and I could toss stones off the back deck and hit at least 3 other houses with young ones ... probably more.

This is great to hear, I'm currently looking at upgrading from our small row house in Riverdale to something a little larger around that area or coxwell/danforth but we were worried about the kid population (we have a 3 year old and another on the way). How are the parks around there? we'd like to know if they are as heavily used by families like the ones we're used to( Withrow, Jimmie Simpson)
 
So much for the unaffordable housing theory, these are some of the more affordable neighbourhoods in town.
I can't stand this "affordable housing" term. What does it mean exactly?

The BBC show Top Gear said it best when someone wrote in asking if a certain car that cost was affordable. The reply from Jeremy Clarkson the host was that the price was GBP20,000 and that if you had that, then yes it was affordable, but if you only had 5P, then no, it wasn't.

Where I live in Cabbagetown, the houses are affordable for those that can afford them. Those that can't, do not live in Cabbagetown, but own their homes instead live in Brampton, Milton, Pickering or 'Sauga.
 
^
I know the Top Gear episode you are talking about (it was the Euro Ford Focus, when it races the Corvette in a Mall/performs an amphibious landing).

In any case, affordibility tends to mean reasonably priced for the median income group. Obviously nothing is affordable for a homeless guy, and everything is affordable for Bill Gates. Those two aren't very representative. Given that housing costs are considered unaffordable when they exceed 30-32% of household income, or 3.5x annual household income if you are actually talking about buying a house, and median household income in Toronto is 52k an affordable house would be ~182k, or rent would be $1,350/m. You're not going to find anything more than a bachelor south of Bloor for that, if that.
 
Schools close primarily because of demographic changes, mostly aging...they were overbuilt in the 50s-80s at a time when the neighbourhood unit school with like 200 kids was trendy and when the area grows up, the kids leave quite suddenly. Only when the retirees and widows leave years later can enrollment climb back up. Affordability isn't really a big deal. Newer schools or rebuilt schools are invariably much larger, usually with space for 400+ kids.

That map makes areas look worse off than they really are. If a single school has enrollment problems - and a single school can serve literally a few crescents of houses - adjacent schools will also be slated for consolidation because they're the ones that will absorb the kids. The map indicates about 8 schools across the entire city with enrollment problems, a pretty trivial number, but includes like 30 because closures affect multiple schools.

The TDSB/TCDSB divide makes things thougher. If, say, Italian people leave an area and are replaced by Portuguese and Philippino people, the Catholic schools will stay afloat. If they're replaced by non-Catholics, though, the TDSB schools will become overcrowded and the TCDSB schools will be in trouble. If replaced by no kids at all, both boards have problems. Both Toronto boards use very minimal bussing and rely on compact local areas to feed their schools. Between renovations necessary to consolidate school bodies and possible bus expenses, closing schools won't net the boards much money. Many sites will need to be kept to counter future population increases and demographic change, to be used as temporary schools during construction, to be used for storage, to be leased out to private schools, etc. They're sitting on a gold mine of real estate but they can't mine much of the gold.


As for housing, 3+ bedroom condos would be great are either rarely built or would require buying and merging two units. Either way, not cheap. Townhouses are ideal but are only built with extreme luxury in mind...new townhouses never seem to be offered for less than 600K. Might as well move to Markham or Milton. People want houses not just because of the backyards but because of the space, literally, between houses. This seems silly to many people of our generation, where 3 or more kids per household is pretty rare, but our parents came from larger households, where 3+ kids was normal. How many kids these days share a bedroom with someone else? These days there's less real impulses to crave space for the sake of space and breathing room and privacy, but inertia is strong, especially when reinforced by the media and culture and family. There's amazingly few pop culture examples of happy families living in apartments...Sesame Street...and, err...hmm.
 
Given that housing costs are considered unaffordable when they exceed 30-32% of household income, or 3.5x annual household income if you are actually talking about buying a house, and median household income in Toronto is 52k an affordable house would be ~182k, or rent would be $1,350/m.
We have to be careful with stats though. Household income may be $52K, but we need to remove the lowest households who couldn't afford to buy a house anywhere in the GTA, let alone downtown Toronto. I suggest removing these folks since they're not representative of the income group that is going to buy a house in the gentrified (as opposed to White-Flight impacted US cities) downtown core of any North American city.

I would say that downtown home ownership is affordable to anyone making $80K or more for smallish condos, $100K or more for semis and single detached houses. I just ran a MLS search and found 20 detached, semis or single houses south of Bloor for between $400 and $500K. If your income isn't $100K or more then I'd say you will find home ownership outside of condos to be unaffordable. I imagine you can do it, but it'll be a stretch, especially if you have a couple of kids, and some vehicles.
 
This is great to hear, I'm currently looking at upgrading from our small row house in Riverdale to something a little larger around that area or coxwell/danforth but we were worried about the kid population (we have a 3 year old and another on the way). How are the parks around there? we'd like to know if they are as heavily used by families like the ones we're used to( Withrow, Jimmie Simpson)
It's unusual for me to be the only one in a park ... well perhaps at 8 pm ... our kid keeps odd hours. Hard to compare relatively ... and the parks are certainly a lot emptier now it's getting cooler. I'm not particularly famliar with those two ...
 
Is anyone aware of any books or studies on family housing, affordable housing, or anything of the like in New York City? Perhaps there are lessons to be learned there.

Many buildings in the 20-30s were built with larger units for families. What were the conditions that made this possible?

I know the majority of New Yorkers rent too, which may be an answer.

Perhaps there can be subsidies for builders who build apartment buildings for rental with larger units designed for families?
 
How many kids these days share a bedroom with someone else? These days there's less real impulses to crave space for the sake of space and breathing room and privacy, but inertia is strong, especially when reinforced by the media and culture and family. There's amazingly few pop culture examples of happy families living in apartments...Sesame Street...and, err...hmm.

I find this concept really interesting. The need to have "space" and a "backyard" is a very American concept.

Our plan calls to have two kids share a 300sqft loft room, and I think a lot of folks would consider that child abuse!
 
It's not unusual in cities like Paris or London to have a family of four living in under 400 sq ft. I know some people like that and they're not unhappier than anyone else. In fact they may be more stable emotionally because they have to get along and cooperate and deal with things rather than running off to another part of the house.
 
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Condo's downtown, even if family friendly are generally two small. These days a 2br is only 750sqft, while on the outskirts or in older buildings, they tend to be much larger.

My sister lives in a 3br condo on the edge of North York, just south of Steeles, and the unit is 1600 sq ft. That is plenty of space to raise children, and she has done so. In her building there are many families with kids, because the units are decent sized.

We all agree that children need space, but new condos are too small, even 3br condos that do exist are usually just under 1000 sq ft, and that means tiny rooms and a small living/dining area.

Also, one main problem with condos that never seems to be addressed:
Why are the condo fees so freaking high in new buildings? My sister pays $500/mth for maintenance and that includes everything and cable TV. Sure, her building doesn't have a pool or fitness centre, but those are nearby. Most units that size would charge over $1000 just in condo fees, and that can rival the mortgage payments.

Families need housing that is reasonably priced, spaced and good location.

My building has many families with children, living mostly in 3br + den units, something rare for my area (NYCC). The 3br units are about 1100-1200 sq ft, and have reasonable condo fees (500-600/mth). Units generally sell for around $350K, which is quite affordable for a family. In downtown, you would barely be able to get a small 2br for that price these days.

We need condo developers to build more of those units, either by encouraging them through tax incentives or other means.
 
How sticky's sticky?

Are they really sticky on that? I've been looking at Gabrielle-Roy at Pembroke & Shuter, planning for enrollment in c2015-6.

I can only swear in French, and my family are former Anglo Montrealers.

Hmmm... officially, they're very sticky. As in, no exceptions. Unofficially, in a year where they're not going to fill up the class, you might have a shot. I know of at least one Chinese kid whose family are anglophone that has gone to Sacre Coeur the whole time my two have been there, and is now planning on College Francais.

Your child better be bright, though, because it'll be difficult for you to help with homework.
 
I find this concept really interesting. The need to have "space" and a "backyard" is a very American concept.

I think that the "bathroom per person" concept is very American - and if you can't have a bathroom per person, then god forbid that you would actually have to share a sink! :)
 

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