Extending Hwy 400 South

[UD2]

It's widely understood that freeways destroy communities. But what about building a freeway above existing railway tracks?

Wouldn't it be great if we could build highway 400 down the existing Black Creek drive and then align it right above the railroad tracks which will take it directly downtown?

Toronto desperately need a western link that will connect its downtown with the western suburbs. This way we can do it with minimal disturbance to the surrounding communities.

 

[dunkalunk]

Run the DRL/All Day GO in the same corridor? Besides, Keele/Weston moves fairly well right now during rush hour.

 

[junctionist]

It's widely understood that freeways destroy communities. But what about building a freeway above existing railway tracks?

Wouldn't it be great if we could build highway 400 down the existing Black Creek drive and then align it right above the railroad tracks which will take it directly downtown?

Toronto desperately need a western link that will connect its downtown with the western suburbs. This way we can do it with minimal disturbance to the surrounding communities.

We now use trains to link suburbs with downtown. I live near where this theoretical highway would run and I have no problem getting around the western suburbs by car. It would be a shame building a noisy viaduct along the rail corridor or spending the money on a tunnel, and the exit ramps would require a lot of destruction to neighbourhoods. It would be a disaster as it would dump a lot more cars on the limited capacity old Toronto streets and encourage more people to drive downtown.

 

[Electrify]

While it might have made sense in the 50s-80s to do this, today not so much. Downtown can't really handle any more cars, and the subway extension to Vaughan plus all day GO are much better solutions to link the northwestern suburbs to the core.

While somewhat out of the way, the 400-401-409-427 is a decent through link into downtown.

(it is amazing how open the 409 is compared to the 401 it parallels)

 

[andrewpmk]

This would have to be built in a tunnel south of Eglinton, like Rocco Rossi's proposal to extend Allen. Building a 400 extension over the rail corridor would destroy neighbourhoods. Since this would be very expensive it would have to have high tolls and private sector financing to make it financially viable. This would be comparable to the A86 road tunnel in the western suburbs of Paris or the Brisbane road tunnels.

Improved GO service on the Georgetown line and starting up GO service on the line to Woodbridge and Bolton is a better use of limited funds I think.

 

[marcus_a_j]

(it is amazing how open the 409 is compared to the 401 it parallels)

Ssshhhh!!

 

[JoeParez]

(it is amazing how open the 409 is compared to the 401 it parallels)

Maybe if you wanted to get from the 427 to Martin Grove -- have you ever tried going from the Airport to the 401; via the 409 at around -- oh, say... 5:30pm?

 

[pman]

Given the fact that we've already built a car-dependent and sprawled urban region with apparently world-class commute times, it seems unreasonable to deem any freeway expansions unthinkable. If a private developer could build a tolled tunnel extending 400 southeast to downtown, with a limited number of interchanges, the benefits would seem to outweigh the costs. It's at least worth examining the experience of cities like Melbourne and Sydney, which have tolled expressways in tunnels, yet always score high on quality of life surveys.

 

[ShonTron]

Run the DRL/All Day GO in the same corridor? Besides, Keele/Weston moves fairly well right now during rush hour.

Agree with point 1, totally disagree with point 2.

The Keele/St Clair/Weston area is already one of the worst bottlenecks in the city, and the RioCan Stockyards will only make things worse. For one thing, the way the St Clair ROW was cheaply built within the ancient underpasses really messed things up, especially for the 41 Keele bus.

But building the 400 Extension wouldn't solve that problem either. At most, I'd extend Black Creek Drive on the east side of the GO/CP tracks to connect with Rogers directly, St Clair, Davenport. Or even extend Keele Street in that direction. But I'm not even sure of that's worth the cost.

Or maybe just extend Keele and connect it directly with Gunns/Weston across the tracks, at least filtering the big box traffic around the bottleneck, and eliminating the Keele jog.

 

[MisterF]

Given the fact that we've already built a car-dependent and sprawled urban region with apparently world-class commute times, it seems unreasonable to deem any freeway expansions unthinkable. If a private developer could build a tolled tunnel extending 400 southeast to downtown, with a limited number of interchanges, the benefits would seem to outweigh the costs. It's at least worth examining the experience of cities like Melbourne and Sydney, which have tolled expressways in tunnels, yet always score high on quality of life surveys.

A tolled tunnel would be the only way to make this work. But even then there would be big problems with the interchanges and more traffic getting dumped onto local streets. Not to mention the already congested Gardiner. Really though, the traffic isn't so bad. It's not a hard drive from downtown up to the 400 via Black Creek.

Oh yeah, do you really think a private developer would spend billions on a highway tunnel to downtown??? Hell would freeze over before that happened.

Frequent all day service on the GO lines and integrated fares would do so much more for urban mobility than highways ever could.

 

[pman]

Oh yeah, do you really think a private developer would spend billions on a highway tunnel to downtown??? Hell would freeze over before that happened.

It does seem to happen in some other cities. Sydney and Melbourne come to mind, and we do have a local above ground example with 407. Instead of prejudging the response why not put out an RFP and see if any private infrastructure companies are interested?

 

[dlam]

407 was built using tax money, then sold off. no way a private company would have funded to build the 407 from the beginning

 

[TOareaFan]

A tolled tunnel would be the only way to make this work. But even then there would be big problems with the interchanges and more traffic getting dumped onto local streets. Not to mention the already congested Gardiner. Really though, the traffic isn't so bad. It's not a hard drive from downtown up to the 400 via Black Creek.

Oh yeah, do you really think a private developer would spend billions on a highway tunnel to downtown??? Hell would freeze over before that happened.

Frequent all day service on the GO lines and integrated fares would do so much more for urban mobility than highways ever could.

I really, really, want to agree with that last statement but we are stuck with the example that our most frequent existing GO line has not reduced traffic congestion in the Gardiner/qew/427 area at all. My daily drive touches the 410-401-427-gardiner/qew and that area is, easily, the second slowest/most congested part of the drive!

 

[CDL.TO]

I really, really, want to agree with that last statement but we are stuck with the example that our most frequent existing GO line has not reduced traffic congestion in the Gardiner/qew/427 area at all. My daily drive touches the 410-401-427-gardiner/qew and that area is, easily, the second slowest/most congested part of the drive!

He didn't claim that GO trains would eliminate congestion. Cities with the best transit systems are still crazy congested!

 

[gweed123]

He didn't claim that GO trains would eliminate congestion. Cities with the best transit systems are still crazy congested!

Exactly. It won't eliminate congestion, it'll just provide a more viable alternative.