Eglinton-Crosstown Corridor Debate

[Fresh Start]

^ That'd only make sense were the TTC going to invest in fully grade-separating the Eglinton ROW through Scarborough/North York to be a continuance of the elevated SRT station at Kennedy. Given the land use surrounding the corridor with buildings some distance aback from the roadway there shouldn't be much of a NIMBY problem most of the route (perhaps only the Ionview community). I don't see such a long route as really advantageous to travellers aiming to get somewhere across town fast if the ROW's going to be impeded by numerous stoplights and minor stops en route, especially considering the major travel flow pattern to/from STC is coming from the downtown via B-D, not east-to-west directionality.

 

[Dan416]

Still leaves a stupid transfer. Scarborough City Centre is an Urban Growth Centre, and yet both subways to STC have been effectively killed. Coincidence?

 

[kettal]

The problem is the inconsistency of the logic being applied. The fact is, it's not consistent. It has to do with only using LRT. If the logic was "minimize transfers", Sheppard would be subway.

The whole objective with Eglinton LRT is to not repeat another Sheppard. I don't think anybody is proud of the Sheppard transfer, nobody's ideal dream solution involves a transfer on Sheppard. It's certainly not a compelling reason to create transfers on a blank slate like Eglinton.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The point is that the Sheppard LRT doesn't add any transfers (there is already one at Don Mills Stn.) and Eglinton actually eliminates one (at Yonge).

Another point is that you are wrong. Sheppard will add a transfer at Meadowvale.

More importantly, however, is what will happen to the 5 non-Sheppard East bus routes that run east of Don Mills. I've never heard a conclusive official statement about what will become of the 24A, the 224, the 169, the 167, and the 190. Even the TTC isn't dumb enough to terminate them at the LRT, so maybe they'll just slash these routes back, or have them share the road with cars outside the ROW (which would be hilarious).

It's possible, perhaps even probable, that service on Eglinton will continue eastward through Kennedy to Kingston or to STC, creating a multi-branched line that's about 50km long in the name of "removing transfers" [for whichever small group of riders coincidentally benefit from having their origin/destination dots connected]. So, basically, another Queen corridor, but longer and busier and more complex, with no real purpose and solving absolutely no transit problems other than congestion on the central section of Eglinton (although that, too, will inevitably be compromised by red lights and other delays on the surface sections spilling over into the tunnel). And for the low, low price of only, what is it now, 7 billion dollars?

In general, fewer transfers is the way to go, but Eglinton may not really be the place to fight for a continuous line. It makes no sense to spend a bajillion dollars there for the sake of "crosstown," not when the B/D line already runs *almost all the way* across the city and when the entire Eglinton branch complex could be replaced by service on the Midtown GO line, when Sheppard's still a stubway, etc. There's really nothing on Eglinton, too, but some people think we can just wave a magic wand and it'll turn into the next Yonge Street, with schools and offices and stores and a million people living and working steps from an Eglinton station...it's not going to happen.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

The whole objective with Eglinton LRT is to not repeat another Sheppard. I don't think anybody is proud of the Sheppard transfer, nobody's ideal dream solution involves a transfer on Sheppard. It's certainly not a compelling reason to create transfers on a blank slate like Eglinton.

It's just a convenient coincidence that both decisions support LRT then?

 

[Dan416]

I partly agree with you. but I don't think the Eglinton line is unnecessarily long. The thing about how they're doing it is that it COULD work. But we just really don't know at this point. I think the central tunnelled portion will stimulate Eglinton just as the Sheppard subway has for Sheppard. So I think it IS worth it. But for all we know, the Eglinton line might be hampered by the red lights on the outer portions. In fact, knowing the TTC, I could envision them having to separate the tunnelled portion from the above-ground portions to avoid these problems, so that people would have transfer at the portals to the tunnel. In which case, the whole project would turn out to be a farce. I think it's a possibilty, a very real possibility. But I don't think it's probable. The TTC has too much riding on the Eglinton LRT to mess it up. If Eglinton is messed up, LRT as rapid transit in Toronto will be dead forever. Depending on ridership, it might not be a total failure. If the tunnelled portion fails to bring in riders, then they'll be panned for spending so much money. If it brings in too many riders, they'll be panned for not building it as subway from the get-go. The saving grace is that they are building it to be convertible to subway in the future. It just makes sense to do this.

My biggest concern with it is that if Transit City is indeed going to be built to standard gauge, then converting it to subway wouldn't be impossible, but would require new subway rolling stock, as it wouldn't be compatible with any Toronto subway trains (although they could buy them off-the-shelf, or from another transit operator--so it's not all bad news).

 

[EnviroTO]

That's absurd!!!!! There will be a transfer from the SELRT to the Sheppard subway so you've forced a transfer on riders anyway. The Finch E portion (which is what I hope you are talking about bc there is no Jane East LRT) would be marginalized by a Sheppard E and W extension.

Yes, I mean the Finch East LRT (not Jane). Metrolinx doesn't want transfers crosstown. Their plan was a continuous Sheppard East - Don Mills - Finch East - Finch West route. The Metrolinx study looked into the possibility of converting the Sheppard subway to LRT but decided it would be best to leave it as is and run the continuous route on Finch.

It's about taking people from STC to York U/Downsview as well.

Yes it is and that is why the Metrolinx route is continuous from Sheppard and McCowan to Finch and Sentinel. This route would serve all the way from Meadowvale to Highway 27, potentially the airport, if they can remove the transfer at Don Mills as Metrolinx would prefer. The way for this LRT route to serve Downsview, York U, and STC in a single route while still reaching all the way across the city would be to start from Meadowvale and Sheppard, run to McCowan, head south on McCowan to STC, from STC head north on Brimley to Sheppard, take Sheppard to the existing subway tunnel, convert the tunnel to LRT, continue west on Sheppard to Downsview, duplicate the route of the University extension north to York U, turn south again to get to Finch, and then follow Finch west to Highway 27. That is what would be really insane because it would be a much bigger project, create groups with slower travel due to the meandering route, and duplicate University extension service. Because of this it makes much more sense to run on Finch East for the continuous LRT.

Funny how people can have selective debating points.[/QUOTE]

What is selective about it? Continuous routes are good and they aren't spending money on subways where the demand can be handled by LRT. This is true building on Eglinton, Sheppard, or anywhere else.

 

[EnviroTO]

Still leaves a stupid transfer. Scarborough City Centre is an Urban Growth Centre, and yet both subways to STC have been effectively killed. Coincidence?

There is nothing coincidental about this. They aren't building subways in Toronto regardless of Scarborough City Centre being an Urban Growth Centre period.

 

[EnviroTO]

It's just a convenient coincidence that both decisions support LRT then?

Both decisions support LRT because the current and projected ridership will be in a range which LRT can manage. Transit city is a plan to maximize the coverage area and amount of TTC rail kilometers in the city at the lowest cost. It is the project goals which support LRT. If Transit City was a project to "create the best system with restrictions only on the amount of additional route km but no resrictions on cost" then I would expect that we would be seeing subways built right now.

 

[Rainforest]

... Metrolinx doesn't want transfers crosstown. Their plan was a continuous Sheppard East - Don Mills - Finch East - Finch West route.

... and that is why the Metrolinx route is continuous from Sheppard and McCowan to Finch and Sentinel. This route would serve all the way from Meadowvale to Highway 27, potentially the airport, if they can remove the transfer at Don Mills as Metrolinx would prefer. The way for this LRT route to serve Downsview, York U, and STC in a single route while still reaching all the way across the city would be to start from Meadowvale and Sheppard, run to McCowan, head south on McCowan to STC, from STC head north on Brimley to Sheppard, take Sheppard to the existing subway tunnel, convert the tunnel to LRT, continue west on Sheppard to Downsview, duplicate the route of the University extension north to York U, turn south again to get to Finch, and then follow Finch west to Highway 27. That is what would be really insane because it would be a much bigger project, create groups with slower travel due to the meandering route, and duplicate University extension service. Because of this it makes much more sense to run on Finch East for the continuous LRT.

But the route that Metrolinx selected (Finch West - Finch East - Don Mills - Sheppard East) does not make sense, either. The route will be almost 40 km long, and with average speed 23 kph, a long-range trip will take forever. Meanwhile, they will add transfer on Finch East for those travelling towards Yonge.

If they want another crosstown LRT route, then at least they should continue along Finch East into Malvern, instead of switching to Sheppard. That still would not be very appealing for crosstown trips, but at least would support the existing travel pattern on Finch East.

 

[EnviroTO]

They aren't trying to serve crosstown trips. They are trying to serve more trips with less transfers (Bayview to Jane, Victoria Park to Jane, Morningside to McCowan, Jane to Highway 27, etc.). Only GO Transit type services are reasonable in terms of trip time for crosstown trips which go all the way from Scarborough to Etobicoke. LRT and Subways can't compare to the McCowan to Royal York in 37 minutes that GO Transit provides. Even going Kipling to Kennedy (which doesn't reach the western end of Etobicoke and the east end of Scarborough) on the subway is not a great way to go across the whole city. I doubt they will remove buses on Finch East between Yonge and Don Mills... they will probably continue to run to Finch station but in the ROW. They experimented with giving people the option of Don Mills or Finch station and most people chose Finch station. I agree that it would be better if the service was continuous on Finch and likely that is what they would be building if the Sheppard subway didn't exist or if the Sheppard subway terminated at STC. The existence of the Sheppard subway terminating at Don Mills necessitated that this LRT line come down to Sheppard to act as its feeder.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Combining Finch and Sheppard via Don Mills is completely idiotic and helps essentially no one, not even theoretical riders. Vastly more actual riders will be affected by the added transfer on the Finch East bus - the busiest route in the city would be severed just so transfers somewhere else could be removed, and this makes no sense at all.

The trip from one end to the other would still take a full 2 hours, so zero riders will be lured to the service for reasons of speed even after a transfer or two are gone for theoretical riders going from Sheppard East to Finch West.

No time will be saved for shorter trips, either. Transfers on and off the Finch East bus are currently the easiest in the whole city due to the miniscule headways. Transferring on and off the Don Mills bus or at Finch or Don Mills stations is also very fast and very easy...you step off the bus, walk a few feet, and the next bus is probably already there. We're not talking a Kennedy-esque transfer involving 3 storeys of stairs and a 5 minute wait to continue on in the same direction.

 

[nfitz]

But the route that Metrolinx selected (Finch West - Finch East - Don Mills - Sheppard East) does not make sense, either. The route will be almost 40 km long, and with average speed 23 kph, a long-range trip will take forever. Meanwhile, they will add transfer on Finch East for those travelling towards Yonge.

There's been no indication that the Sheppard East LRT and Finch West LRT will be operated as one route. And TTC has given little indication that they will actually ever build the Finch station to Don Mills station leg. In a TTC presentation as recently as last week, they were showing the Sheppard East LRT terminating at the end of the existing subway platform.

Furthermore, if one is planning a regular 40 km commute, isn't it reasomable to expect it will take a long time? If this was a through route, very few would be taking it end to end. The 501 streetcar is less than 25 km, and studies show that those taking it from near one end, to near the other are almost unmeasurably low.

Wouldn't 40-km commutes be best dealt with using a regional service? Even today, I'd think it would be faster to take hourly GO Bus from Humber College. It takes at most 43 minutes to York Mills station (29 minutes off-peak), and from York Mills there is the frequent (3-4 trips per hour) GO service that stops at Scarborough Centre taking only 30-minutes peak, 25-minutes off-peak.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

There's been no indication that the Sheppard East LRT and Finch West LRT will be operated as one route. And TTC has given little indication that they will actually ever build the Finch station to Don Mills station leg. In a TTC presentation as recently as last week, they were showing the Sheppard East LRT terminating at the end of the existing subway platform.

Furthermore, if one is planning a regular 40 km commute, isn't it reasomable to expect it will take a long time? If this was a through route, very few would be taking it end to end. The 501 streetcar is less than 25 km, and studies show that those taking it from near one end, to near the other are almost unmeasurably low.

Wouldn't 40-km commutes be best dealt with using a regional service? Even today, I'd think it would be faster to take hourly GO Bus from Humber College. It takes at most 43 minutes to York Mills station (29 minutes off-peak), and from York Mills there is the frequent (3-4 trips per hour) GO service that stops at Scarborough Centre taking only 30-minutes peak, 25-minutes off-peak.

And around the logical merry go round we go!

Point to be made however re CC's post is that the Finch East portion has been proposed by Metrolinx not the TTC/City. Metrolinx was also looking at HRT for the Eglinton corridor and we know that the TTC/City don't want that. You have to separate the different proposals from different organizations.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

If no one's using the Finch-Sheppard line from one end to the other, or even from close to one end to close to the other, why connect them? Transferring on and off the Finch East bus is just about the easiest and quickest transfer in the entire TTC network. Even if there were hordes of people wanting to go from Bathurst & Finch to Victoria Park & Sheppard - and there isn't - this theoretical ridership would be dwarfed by the hordes of people forced to deal with worse service on Finch East, one of the only surface routes in the city that functions well. There's 20 or 30 other major routes lying around waiting desperately for help...leave the 39 alone.

Same with, say, combining Eglinton with the SRT...if no one's going that way, why combine them? Having four lines - including about $7B worth of LRT lines - converge on Kennedy station without continuing on would be equally dumb but we're only left with dumb and astronomically expensive options if a short subway extension to STC is taken off the table.