Eglinton-Crosstown Corridor Debate

[doady]

In a post-peak oil scenario, then there will be very few private cars on the street to contend with. Not only will the LRT lines have fewer obstacles, the Queen Streetcar might actually become very fast.

In that's the scenario, then it would make sense to invest in a transit system that can move the largest numbers of people, i.e. a subway system.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

It should be remembered that Eglinton Crosstown LRT will not be all by itself as an east-west transit corridor. The Etobicoke Finch West and the Sheppard East will also be east-west transit corridors. Since they most likely be opened first, they will help to siphon some passenger load off of the later Eglinton (and the current Bloor-Danforth) along those corridors.

No, they won't siphon anyone off Eglinton or B/D.

 

[W. K. Lis]

If you are going downtown, you will be more likely to get a seat on Yonge-University-Spadina by getting onto it, the more northerly you can transfer onto it. Staying on a north-south bus to the Bloor-Danforth, and then transferring at St. George or Yonge, does not guarantee getting a seat.

If you are not going downtown, Eglinton will be the route to take, to go crosstown to avoid the crowds on Bloor-Danforth.

 

[nfitz]

On the other hand, if I'm on the Danforth, heading up to Eglinton; currently I'd tend to take the subway a couple of stops to a station such as Pape and take the bus up. In the future, I might be tempted to take the subway all the way to Yonge or Kennedy, and go across, to avoid the bus. For some trips, the Eglinton RT might increase BD trips.

 

[kettal]

If you are going downtown, you will be more likely to get a seat on Yonge-University-Spadina by getting onto it, the more northerly you can transfer onto it. Staying on a north-south bus to the Bloor-Danforth, and then transferring at St. George or Yonge, does not guarantee getting a seat.

If you are not going downtown, Eglinton will be the route to take, to go crosstown to avoid the crowds on Bloor-Danforth.

I don't think anybody in North York, or even north Etobicoke, uses Bloor-Danforth for their trip into downtown.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I don't think anybody in North York, or even north Etobicoke, uses Bloor-Danforth for their trip into downtown.

Actually, thousands do in both places. The Spadina extension will shift some Rexdale riders off Bloor.

 

[EnviroTO]

The thing about LRT is that if you run it like its a subway, it ends up being more expensive than subway because subway cars are actually cheaper than LRVs.

Comparing the new Toronto Rocket subways to the new downtown streetcars the prices are $11.8K/pax for a full subway and $17.3K/pax for a full streetcar. However, the Transit City streetcars will be cheaper per passenger compared to the new downtown streetcars because they will have less powered wheels and one less driver cab so comparing to the more expensive downtown streetcars is overstating the difference in price. The weight of an LRV is lighter so the energy costs are lower for a streetcar than it is for a subway. On the surface LRT has far lower operational costs than a bus due to less drivers per passenger and employees are often the highest operational expense. LRT systems make little sense for routes which are 100% grade separated but for routes that are not fully grade separated they are more economically viable than a mixed subway + bus option.

 

[kettal]

Actually, they will have one more driver cab.

 

[gweed123]

Comparing the new Toronto Rocket subways to the new downtown streetcars the prices are $11.8K/pax for a full subway and $17.3K/pax for a full streetcar. However, the Transit City streetcars will be cheaper per passenger compared to the new downtown streetcars because they will have less powered wheels and one less driver cab so comparing to the more expensive downtown streetcars is overstating the difference in price. The weight of an LRV is lighter so the energy costs are lower for a streetcar than it is for a subway. On the surface LRT has far lower operational costs than a bus due to less drivers per passenger and employees are often the highest operational expense. LRT systems make little sense for routes which are 100% grade separated but for routes that are not fully grade separated they are more economically viable than a mixed subway + bus option.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this debate kind of moot? The TTC ordered new subway cars for the YUS line, this means a substantial number of trainsets will be bumped out of service, or onto B-D. Can't some of those trainsets be used on Eglinton if it were to become a subway? There wouldn't even need to be another yard built, as they could be stored at Davisville and Wilson. Not having to buy new rolling stock and build a new yard (both of which will be needed for the LRT) immediately on opening seems like a pretty good advantage to me. I do realize some of these trainsets are nearing the end of their lifespan, but they still have at least another 10 years in them. Not all of them would need to stay in service, as Eglinton could run on 4 car trainsets like Sheppard.

 

[EnviroTO]

Actually, they will have one more driver cab.

Ooops. I was a little mixed up. One more cab but less motors and expected to be cheaper than the downtown units.

 

[Dan416]

Comparing the new Toronto Rocket subways to the new downtown streetcars the prices are $11.8K/pax for a full subway and $17.3K/pax for a full streetcar. However, the Transit City streetcars will be cheaper per passenger compared to the new downtown streetcars because they will have less powered wheels and one less driver cab so comparing to the more expensive downtown streetcars is overstating the difference in price. The weight of an LRV is lighter so the energy costs are lower for a streetcar than it is for a subway. On the surface LRT has far lower operational costs than a bus due to less drivers per passenger and employees are often the highest operational expense. LRT systems make little sense for routes which are 100% grade separated but for routes that are not fully grade separated they are more economically viable than a mixed subway + bus option.

Which explains why Eglinton is proposed to run on the street and not in its own ROW. It's the only way to justify making Eglinton LRT

 

[EnviroTO]

The expense of creating a grade separated ROW is beyond the economics of the vehicle itself. It might not be economical to create a grade separated ROW outside of the core part of the route from Weston Road to Leaside. If the route was grade separated from the Airport to Kennedy it would make no sense to use LRT because there would be no savings. Since grade separation is only going a few blocks east of Yonge and to Weston Road it makes more sense to use LRT so more people have less transfers. The portal locations of Weston Road and Leaside are not important transfer points in the network, there is no reason to expect the LRT would be at capacity on opening, and LRT eliminates a huge number of transfers so for Eglinton it seems LRT makes sense. The shorter the route which is grade separated the more sense LRT makes. With only half the route grade separated on Eglinton West the number of people needing to transfer mid-trip is a significant portion of the whole. With only a third of the route grade separated on Eglinton East it makes even less sense for a subway on that portion.

 

[Dan416]

The expense of creating a grade separated ROW is beyond the economics of the vehicle itself. It might not be economical to create a grade separated ROW outside of the core part of the route from Weston Road to Leaside. If the route was grade separated from the Airport to Kennedy it would make no sense to use LRT because there would be no savings. Since grade separation is only going a few blocks east of Yonge and to Weston Road it makes more sense to use LRT so more people have less transfers. The portal locations of Weston Road and Leaside are not important transfer points in the network, there is no reason to expect the LRT would be at capacity on opening, and LRT eliminates a huge number of transfers so for Eglinton it seems LRT makes sense. The shorter the route which is grade separated the more sense LRT makes. With only half the route grade separated on Eglinton West the number of people needing to transfer mid-trip is a significant portion of the whole. With only a third of the route grade separated on Eglinton East it makes even less sense for a subway on that portion.

Some of us have been arguing for a good long while that it makes no sense to not have the Eglinton line grade-separated throughout. It doesn't all have to be TUNNELED. We're fine with trenching, cut-and-cover, whatever. There's no reason Eglinton needs to run on the street. Oh wait, we're trying to be European. There is ONE reason.

 

[kettal]

And the building, maintenance, and staffing of full underground stations where they're not sustainable.

 

[unimaginative2]

What does sustainable even mean? It seems to be one of the buzzwords that streetcar fans use to bash subways over the head and obtain approving nods, but sustainability is certainly in the eye of the beholder, unless you're talking about its ability to pay for itself. And if that's your criteria, you may as well tear up all the streetcar lines and take most of the buses off the road, too.