Eglinton-Crosstown Corridor Debate

[scarberiankhatru]

Eglinton doesn't absolutely need to be a subway line. Between a rail connection from downtown to the airport and a DRL up Don Mills, there's no trip generators at all left along Eglinton of note that won't be served by rapid transit. Eglinton's future ridership is extremely unpredictable...much of it can and maybe will be cannibalized by other lines, the Avenues/intensification potential is far more limited than it seems, ridership could vary greatly based on which and where bus routes terminate at Eglinton, etc. If a subway line was built, though, it'd take an enormous number of buses and bus mileage off the streets, or let them be used elsewhere.

That said, what the corridor does need is more grade-separation. Spending $5B on a line that runs in the middle of the street is incredibly stupid. We must spend billions putting transit over the central segment underground no matter what happens, but there's no reason to squander the rest of the line by running it in the middle of the road, not continuing east of Kennedy, having it wander around the 401/427 interchange, and so on.

And $4.6B is just the current estimate...the final cost will be higher.

 

[Tdot_one]

The 59 Airport does not have a tunnel. In fact, it runs through the CBD where it has to share a track with 10 other tram routes. It also runs in mixed traffic and has no signal priority.

If you want to compare to a Melbourne tram, try route 96, but even that tram has to go through the congested CBD, which does not apply to Eglinton.

Eglinton is going to have signal priority? Interesting, I never seen that on the current street cars within Toronto.

From what I seen when I used to live at Queens/William St, the high density is only present between Spencer St and Swanston. Since Eglinton-Yonge is going to be intensified at a density rivaling downtown (according to a civil engineer, I know), wouldn't quality of service be more-or-less similar?

Don't get me wrong, Tram 96 isn't too bad. The commuter rail seems so much better and the subway easily beats rail in Melbourne. I'd rather take the subway than travel on the Eglinton LRT. It should have more stops and be more local. Instead GO should build a commuter line somewhere north of Eglinton.

 

[CodeMonkey]

The thing i never understood about the airport connection is; If the Blue-22 is suppose to be faster connection, and its supposed to carry the bulk of people coming in and out of Person to places like downtown to mid-town. What purpose does the Eglinton airport connect serve??

 

[kettal]

Eglinton is going to have signal priority? Interesting, I never seen that on the current street cars within Toronto.

From what I seen when I used to live at Queens/William St, the high density is only present between Spencer St and Swanston. Since Eglinton-Yonge is going to be intensified at a density rivaling downtown (according to a civil engineer, I know), wouldn't quality of service be more-or-less similar?

Don't get me wrong, Tram 96 isn't too bad. The commuter rail seems so much better and the subway easily beats rail in Melbourne. I'd rather take the subway than travel on the Eglinton LRT. It should have more stops and be more local. Instead GO should build a commuter line somewhere north of Eglinton.

The congestion I was talking about is the congestion you get in Melboune's tam tracks when 6 different routes share the same tracks. The 96 has to wait behind trams 109, 112, 86, and 95 through the CBD, which slows him down to a crawl.

The Eglinton LRT will not only have it's own tracks, unshared with any other trams, but it will be underground in a subway-like tunnel from Jane all through to near Leslie. The density that arises at Yonge & Eglinton won't have an effect on service at all.

Yes it will have traffic light priority, and exclusive lanes for the sections that are above ground.

 

[Tdot_one]

The congestion I was talking about is the congestion you get in Melboune's tam tracks when 6 different routes share the same tracks. The 96 has to wait behind trams 109, 112, 86, and 95 through the CBD, which slows him down to a crawl.

The Eglinton LRT will not only have it's own tracks, unshared with any other trams, but it will be underground in a subway-like tunnel from Jane all through to near Leslie. The density that arises at Yonge & Eglinton won't have an effect on service at all.

Yes it will have traffic light priority, and exclusive lanes for the sections that are above ground.

Will Eglinton train run from Kennedy Station to the Airport? Will there be any specialized service that runs solely within the tunnels or Kennedy to Eglinton. I don't see why a crosstown service is required when GO and the Subway are superior alternatives.

I think Eglinton should run additional trams that goes down Victoria Park and could probably turn East across Danforth to Main St. Maybe it the run down Dawes Road as well. There are a lot of towers between Eglinton and Danforth, two TTC stations within the area, and the Danforth GO station. These are the types of areas that should be intensified in order to support a younger population.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I am assuming that when they say Eglinton-Crosstown LRT will be built to Heavy Rail Transit standards, I guess they mean the tunnels will be able to accommodate the Heavy Rail Vehicle trains without more digging.

The stations will be have non-load bearing partitions and floors, so that if they will upgrade the tunnels, it will mean simply moving and adjusting the partitions and floors to the width and height needed.

This would be similar to your home. The non-loading bearing walls can be moved or removed to resize the rooms.

The outside, non-tunnel sections will have to be tunneled under the street at that future date, should that be needed.

 

[Dan416]

I am assuming that when they say Eglinton-Crosstown LRT will be built to Heavy Rail Transit standards, I guess they mean the tunnels will be able to accommodate the Heavy Rail Vehicle trains without more digging.

The stations will be have non-load bearing partitions and floors, so that if they will upgrade the tunnels, it will mean simply moving and adjusting the partitions and floors to the width and height needed.

This would be similar to your home. The non-loading bearing walls can be moved or removed to resize the rooms.

The outside, non-tunnel sections will have to be tunneled under the street at that future date, should that be needed.

Oh I'm not worried about the tunnels being built for future conversion to subway. It's always been said that that's what they're doing, and if you're spending billions of dollars on a tunnel, you might as well spend a few extra million to make sure it's future-proof. I just doubt it'd be done any time soon after that. And I'd prefer it be done now. But the tunnel portion of Eglinton isn't where I have a problem. It's the extremities and the running of the line on the street.

And of course the mess that Metrolinx is planning for the Finch/Sheppard corridor, which has somehow morphed into one long random line.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Oh I'm not worried about the tunnels being built for future conversion to subway. It's always been said that that's what they're doing, and if you're spending billions of dollars on a tunnel, you might as well spend a few extra million to make sure it's future-proof. I just doubt it'd be done any time soon after that. And I'd prefer it be done now. But the tunnel portion of Eglinton isn't where I have a problem. It's the extremities and the running of the line on the street.

And of course the mess that Metrolinx is planning for the Finch/Sheppard corridor, which has somehow morphed into one long random line.

While oil is still cheaply available from Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, and Russia, having light rail vehicles is fine at the moment. Running light rail vehicles in the tunnels are just about the equivalent to the Montréal Metro capacity. The light rail vehicles will have the same width as the Metro cars, and length is adjustable by adding more cars. The stations could be built for a full 6 heavy rail car train, but with partitions for shorter 2 or 3 light rail car trains.

However, if in 25 years, all that cheap oil is used up, and the only oil available is from the expensive Alberta oil sands, having the existing tunnels already at heavy rail vehicle sizes will save enough money to allow them to dig the new tunnels at the extremities and under the street. I don't see them doing a Bloor-Danforth and dig to the side and parallel to the street, except at river valleys.

The only question I have is how the portals at Jane and Leslie be built to still allow for a future tunnel.

 

[kettal]

However, if in 25 years, all that cheap oil is used up, and the only oil available is from the expensive Alberta oil sands, having the existing tunnels already at heavy rail vehicle sizes will save enough money to allow them to dig the new tunnels at the extremities and under the street. I don't see them doing a Bloor-Danforth and dig to the side and parallel to the street, except at river valleys.

In a post-peak oil scenario, then there will be very few private cars on the street to contend with. Not only will the LRT lines have fewer obstacles, the Queen Streetcar might actually become very fast.

 

[nfitz]

I can remember articles over 25-years ago saying that in 25-years that we'd have run out of oil by now. It will happen one day, but I doubt it will have a serious impact this century. Prices have certainly risen over the last 5-10 years, but it's more to do with the increased consumption of oil in places like China and India, than production decreases.

 

[Darwinkgo]

In a post-peak oil scenario, then there will be very few private cars on the street to contend with. Not only will the LRT lines have fewer obstacles, the Queen Streetcar might actually become very fast.

I think you vastly underestimate human ingenuity to develop cars that don't run on oil, and at the same time recover more oil. When oil prices go up enough the incentive to own a car like a plug in hybrid are huge. Consumption goes down and a new lower price in the market is reached.

We aren't all going to be on bicycles due to peak oil. We survived $150 dollar a barrel oil and we will do it again.

 

[rbt]

I can remember articles over 25-years ago saying that in 25-years that we'd have run out of oil by now. It will happen one day...

Indeed. The prediction at that time was that the United States would run out of domestic sources of oil.

They did. Most oil is imported from other countries, including Canada and Mexico.


Current predictions are that "cheap" oil will be used up. This will also happen but things like Alberta Tar Sands are not cheap oil but can still be profitable and plentiful at current prices.

We will never run out of oil but periodically the price and shipping distance increase. If it increases enough, we simply pull CO2 out of the air and produce it directly ($1000+ per barrel but possible with a large enough power source).

 

[Second_in_pie]

Are you kidding me? Well I guess if you mean that we'll always have some deep subterranean, undersea oil reserve, then you're right. But the idea that we'll never run out of practical oil is pretty absurd. We will, and especially with China and India modernizing, it'll come very soon.

But I don't see how this affects the LRT debate. If oil does become that expensive, it'll be a big incentive to taking transit, but there's things way more obvious than that. Toronto's supposed to get a couple hundred thousand more people in the next 10 years or so, meaning more people taking transit, which is happening, seeing how the Yonge line suddenly became hideously overcapacity in the past decade

I've said, Eglinton could easily get around the same ridership stats as the B-D does right now, at the ends, through the middle, it should all be around the same. It might take half the ridership of the B-D out, but that just makes the system more healthy. 300k people/day on Eglinton, 300k people/day on the B-D is better than 500k people/day just on the B-D.

I said I'm not arguing, but I'm just asking if you'd want the same thing for the B-D.

 

[W. K. Lis]

It should be remembered that Eglinton Crosstown LRT will not be all by itself as an east-west transit corridor. The Etobicoke Finch West and the Sheppard East will also be east-west transit corridors. Since they most likely be opened first, they will help to siphon some passenger load off of the later Eglinton (and the current Bloor-Danforth) along those corridors.

All of them, however, will be transferring more people to Yonge-University-Spadina HRT. I hope that the plans for GO trains for more frequent service and more train routes, will help to siphon some of the passenger load for those who want to get downtown, or cross town if the plans allow for it.

One problem the Eglinton Crosstown will help solve is whenever there are blockages on the Bloor-Danforth itself. With Finch West, Sheppard East, and Eglinton available as alternative routes, those problems will be helped to be eased more than presently.

 

[Second_in_pie]

I'm just trying to say that if everything was all spread out across the entire routes, or if Eglinton was to have the same ridership as the B-D (as it very well could have,) would you think that the B-D should have originally be LRT as Eglinton?

The other LRTs will help spread things out, but not that much.