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Eglinton-Crosstown Corridor Debate

What do you believe should be done on the Eglinton Corridor?

  • Do Nothing

    Votes: 5 1.3%
  • Build the Eglinton Crosstown LRT as per Transit City

    Votes: 140 36.9%
  • Revive the Eglinton Subway

    Votes: 226 59.6%
  • Other (Explain in post)

    Votes: 8 2.1%

  • Total voters
    379
^ I think that any Eglinton subway plan that does not reach the airport, defeats the purpose of Eglinton subway. Everything else but the airport connection, can be handled quite well by the LRT. At the same time, a mixed-traffic bus connection to the airport from a midway terminal is inferior to a continuous LRT link.

A subway from PIA to the DVP is a better idea. However, the suggestion that those 24 km can be built for less than 5 B is way too optimistic, given the projected per-km cost of Spadina extension (even if those 6 km in Richview can be built somewhat cheaper).

How do you figure that? The costs to build the YUS extensions are hyper-inflated and ergo make for an unfair comparison as to what can be accomplished along Eglinton. What part of the Eglinton subway alignment has to tunnel beneath a riverbed or highway system or require a new storage facility or mass 27-bay underground bus terminal or be exclusively in a tunnel bore?

I'm going to try my best to rationalize how building the subway actually SAVES money in contrast to Transit City and several other schemes to get mass transit to the airport. Making Eglinton compatible with HRT technology means that Eglinton trains can utilize Wilson Yard, minimizing the need for a separate storage facility as Wilson still has spare capacity. Davisville Yard is a possibility as well, only one kilometre south of the corridor.

By the way on the issue of transferring, where do you think more people will desire to do so: 5 minute long waits at road median LRT sheds exposed to the elements or climate-controlled stations where trains show up every 2’35’’ or better? If your answer is B, please read on. If roughly half of all southbound trips for major intersecting TTC bus routes (from west to east: 58, 112, 46, 191, 45, 37, 79, 89, 41, 29, 7, 61, 11, 56, 88, 51, 54 and 100) saw majority passenger drop-off at Eglinton, then that’s a steady guaranteed source of ridership. Crunching the numbers: a total of 85,167ppd or 5323pphpd (SOURCE: http://www3.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planning/service_improvements_2008.pdf).

And note that’s just from non-TC prioritized north-south feeder bus trips alone, not accounting for Jane, Don Mills or Eglinton East’s massive levels of riders that’d also directly feed into an Eglinton subway. Then consider Mississauga Transit routes- 11, 17, 27, 35, 50, 57, 82, 89, 109 adding in another 10,000+. The Mississauga Transitway will also attract new ridership, those seeking the Point A - B reliability that comes with the subway, not meandering surface trams. This could all lead to the western termini, handling levels of daily boardings not unlike what Kipling and Islington Stns on the Bloor Line are experiencing today.

Even the staunchest Transit City supporter agrees that the Cross town LRT will eventually need to be retrofitted to subway technology once ridership exceeds capacity, which is expected to happen within 50 years time. Should we wait until then to fix the problem or resolve an issue before it even manifests? Sheppard subway was also considered by many a failure due to its initial lower than anticipated daily usage but look at it now and that's not even a full-length route like Eglinton would be. Surely the demand levels for the airport and northern Mississauga; the Eglinton commercial and retail districts; the ACC, Leaside and Wynford employment centers; and OSC are enough of a draw to fill trains when Sheppard inherently lacks major trip-generators sans Fairview.

And how is one singular subway line which can in fact be seamlessly interlined with the Downtown Relief Line at Mt Dennis to offer direct, continuous rapid transit between PIA and Union/Central Business District; any worse than this overly complicated and expensive, somewhat unwarranted commuter rail scheme?

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/weblog/2009/01/22-will_train.shtml
  • Building about 25 kilometers of new rail between Maltolinton n and Union Station, with three new tracks north of Dundas Street West in Toronto and four new tracks between Dundas Street West and a point just east of Strachan Avenue.
  • Widening 14 bridges, eliminating all street-level road crossings and building new grade separations at Strachan Avenue, Denison Road and Carlingview Drive;
  • Moving the Weston GO Station southward from John Street to Lawrence Avenue West and upgrading the station to serve both GO and Union - Pearson trains;
  • Protecting the Weston community by maintaining links between both sides of the railway tracks and building a railway tunnel. GO and Union - Pearson trains will pass through the tunnel after leaving Weston Station. The tunnel will allow Church and King Streets to remain open, resulting in fewer rail-crossing delays for pedestrians and motorists. The project would eliminate the current street-level crossing at John Street and close John to motorists. A new overpass will help pedestrians walk between both parts of John.
  • Modifiying GO’s Bloor Station (east of Bloor and Dundas Streets West) to accommodate GO and Union-Pearson trains. (Metrolinx’ media backgrounders and webpages also suggest — but don’t specifically spell out — that upgrading Bloor Station would also include a link to the TTC’s 2 Bloor - Danforth subway at Dundas West Station.)
  • Designing a future station where the line crosses Eglinton Avenue West in the Mount Dennis community to allow passengers to connect with the TTC’s Eglinton - Crosstown light rail Transit City line.
  • Designing a possible future station at the Woodbine racetrack and future entertainment complex. (This station may also allow passengers to connect with the TTC’s Finch West - Etobicoke light rail Transit City line.)
  • Building a 3.3 kilometer-long rail spur from GO’s Georgetown Line to Pearson’s Terminal 1 with seven grade separations;
  • Building a a new passenger station at Terminal 1 (Depending on the final Transit City routes, this station may also allow passengers to connect with the TTC’s Etobicoke - Finch West and Eglinton Crosstown light rail Transit City lines.)
  • Revising the original Blue 22 proposal so that the line includes stops at Weston and Bloor Stations. This will allow passengers from areas other than downtown Toronto to travel more easily to and from the airport;
  • Designing, and possibly building, a new yard for repairing and maintaining Union - Pearson rail link trains;

Is all that really necesary when only 17% of Pearson travellers originate from downtown? Would it not just be better to provide rapid transit to some intermediate destinations along the way as the subway can allot? The directness of a seamless DRL-Eglinton subway interline ride with more conscientious stop spacing than Transit City is more beneficial to commuters as a whole whilst being less disruptive to motorists and the community of Weston.

Finally, Eglinton need not cost the City a mint. In fact seeing as the Cross-town LRT is projected to cost $ 5 billion for 30 kilometres, getting 24 kms of subway instead for roughly the same price isn’t that bad of a deal. The central tunneled section of the line has already been estimated at $2.2 billion total. But let us entertain for a second that swapping LRTs for HRT will magically extrapolate the costs. Going by the Spadina extension’s $265 million/km budget, we’ll say it’s $3.180 billion for the 12 km central tunnel. Now the section through all of Etobicoke and east of Brentcliffe would be at-grade or above-grade areas of track. Very generously I’ll say this comes to $200 million/km for the remaining 12 kilometres. That’s still only $5.580 billion total!
 
Is all that really necesary when only 17% of Pearson travellers originate from downtown? Would it not just be better to provide rapid transit to some intermediate destinations along the way as the subway can allot? The directness of a seamless DRL-Eglinton subway interline ride with more conscientious stop spacing than Transit City is more beneficial to commuters as a whole whilst being less disruptive to motorists and the community of Weston.

It may be "only" 17%, but downtown is still the biggest single point. There will be massive service improvements to the rail corridor to Brampton either way, and no, Eglinton is not considered an alternative for that service to Brampton.
 
The TTC can't get its existing lines to work...what will change?
Maybe nothing will change, but there's certainly the possibility things will. The new lines won't even be property of TTC. They will be owned by Metrolinx, and one can hope the Metrolinx guys have their heads screwed on straight enough that they will call TTC out on their bouts of operation incompetence. And the physical properties of this corridor in itself is different enough from Spadina or St Clair that some of the more obvious problems won't be an issue.


What do you think Eglinton is going to look like? The Richview area will look like Sheppard...assuming any development ever actually occurs. If we're lucky, it'll look like Sheppard West.

I'm imagining town houses, mid-rises, and streetfront retail on the current greenfields along Richview.

Lawrence and Eglinton are over 2km apart...thats twice as far as 1km (1km filled with absolutely nothing but houses, and there's even fewer houses at Wincott).

The people who live in between Lawrence & Eglinton at Yonge are much more car-dependant than those who live walking distance from the stops. I'm not insulting the neighbourhood, it is beautiful and pleasant and has great restaurants and shops, but it is certainly underserved by transit compared to other neighbourhoods on Yonge, and this seems to have an influence on the travel patterns of residents.

Is Eglinton East still a real avenue with large gaps like Mount Pleasant-Bayview-Brentcliffe?

Well it's underground, so adding more any more stations here wouldn't be practical.
 
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Maybe nothing will change, but there's certainly the possibility things will. The new lines won't even be property of TTC. They will be owned by Metrolinx, and one can hope the Metrolinx guys have their heads screwed on straight enough that they will call TTC out on their bouts of operation incompetence. And the physical properties of this corridor in itself is different enough from Spadina or St Clair that some of the more obvious problems won't be an issue.

I seriously doubt it...We can only...hope.

Normally I would expect operators to drive the LRT safely as fast as possible between 2 stops since they won't be tied to a schedule...

If it were metrolinx operators or private company operator...then yeah I would feel much better.

But TTC operator...oh god...forget it. They'll drive them like streetcars...slowly even if they see people are in a hurry
 
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I know i've stated this before; but has anyone notice where only now getting automated subways just as we need people to drive these "way of the future" LRTs? I guess it keeps the overprice union members on having a job.
 
I guess it keeps the overprice union members on having a job.
Over-priced operators? What a bizarre comment ... and completely off-topic.

If your going to start randomly insulting people out of your shear ignorance, perhaps you should start a different thread!
 
niftz, are you actually trying to contribute to the discussion?

The TTC operators are obviously overpaid for the service they provide. In fact, even if they were the best ticket collectors in the world, many would be getting paid much more than they should be.
 
Last I heard, the TTC has trouble filling all their operator positions and many of them wash out after the training program. If it was such a plum position, I'm sure that wouldn't be the case.
 
Maybe nothing will change, but there's certainly the possibility things will. The new lines won't even be property of TTC. They will be owned by Metrolinx, and one can hope the Metrolinx guys have their heads screwed on straight enough that they will call TTC out on their bouts of operation incompetence. And the physical properties of this corridor in itself is different enough from Spadina or St Clair that some of the more obvious problems won't be an issue.

But isn't it a bit much to gamble $12 billion on the hope that it will somehow be different and better? The TTC built what it claimed was the Transit City pilot project on St. Clair and it's not different or better. How many more are we going to have to build before they accept that maybe their way isn't the best way?

No city in the world is building the kind of long-distance centre median "light rail" that we're building as part of Transit City. None. There's plenty of long-distance light rail that's being built, but it's all either in a separate off-road right-of-way or, when it is in the middle of the street, equipped with very advanced signal priority with arms that come down and block turning or other traffic. We talk about "Euro-style" light rail as if Transit City is anything like something you'd see in a European city. I lived in Berlin and periodically rode the streetcars there. They're in their own right of way and similar in at least some ways to the Transit City lines. The difference? The total line length never exceeds about six kilometres. It doesn't matter if your service is slow when you're only riding ten blocks. When you're riding from Humber College to Yonge, stopping at every light and at every block is not what anyone would call rapid transit and it's $12 billion to provide a service that is frankly little better than the existing bus routes.

That's not to say that there isn't a place for light rail--there is. Even some of the Transit City routes make some sense. But the best use for light rail is as a local urban or feeder service. We're never going to replicate the streetcar suburbs of the 1920s on the full length of Morningside or Finch. It's just not going to magically happen because there's a streetcar in the middle of the road. On the other hand, we could start feeding into subway and regional rail stations with quick, short light rail routes in neighbourhoods around the city. Then build neighbourhood nodes around them. I like light rail. I like streetcars. I just like it when we use them where they work.
 
niftz, are you actually trying to contribute to the discussion?
About the Eglinton corridor certainly.

The TTC operators are obviously overpaid for the service they provide.
I don't know what world you live, in, but to be making such totally incorrect and naive posts, suggest you don't know much at all ... and brings into question (and possibly explains) some of the other things you have suggested! I haven't got the latest numbers, but the 2007 wage was $26.58 an hour. About $55,000 a year if you assume a 40-hour week. And many of those have a split-shift.

And at that wage, the TTC has problems with turn-over, with recent service cuts being because of a shortage of operators.

It's certainly a decent wage, but it's hardly extravagent. It's comparable to other systems. It would only be obvious to a fool that they they are completely overpaid!

And most importanly, it's completely off-topic. I have no idea why it would be raised in a thread about a new LRT route.
 
If your going to start randomly insulting people out of your shear ignorance, perhaps you should start a different thread!

That was insulting? Really? Let's face it, the last time the TTC looked at going automated the TTC union cry foul that it would cost them their jobs. Why are they quite now? Because the city can finally automate the subways and the former subway operators can drive the LRTs.
 
I spoke to a person at the TTC and he said that it still hasn't been determined if they would actually eliminate the operator position if they automated the trains. I suspect that when the time comes the TTC will cave and retain them all.
 
That was insulting? Really? Let's face it, the last time the TTC looked at going automated the TTC union cry foul that it would cost them their jobs. Why are they quite now? Because the city can finally automate the subways and the former subway operators can drive the LRTs.
And were supposed to believe the paranoid ramblings of someone who can't even write a single coherent sentence?

Not only do your claims have no basis in any reality ... they don't even make sense! The use of the new LRT vehicles on the existing streetcar lines, and the new Transit City lines, will reduce the number of vehicles on the road, as the new vehicles have more capacity than any of the existing LRVs or buses they are replacing.
 
nfitz is right, one LRV driver in Transit City can replace about 5 bus drivers. Your conspiracy theory doesn't hold up, monkey.
 

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