Eglinton-Crosstown Corridor Debate

[Juan_Lennon416]

Gweed123...I am also an urban planning grad from Ryerson and I can tell you that your petition to change Eglinton to a combination of HRT & BRT will die in a heartbeat! According to talks with Giambrone, transit officials and my opinion, Eglinton should (and will) only have one technology for its entire length

 

[gweed123]

Will a central subway with BRT ends really be better?

The central section is already being built to HSR standards (so they say). So converting it in the future will not cost very much. What your plan does is force a transfer for all the BRT passengers who can take the LRT all the way to YUS under the current plan.

So, HRT may have a higher capacity, but the extra transfer will likely make the trip a longer one for anybody past Keele or Don Mills.

The platform length I can understand, but the platform height I can't really see how that can be easily upgradable. The difference between an LRT platform height and an HRT platform height is several feet. The tracks will also be completely redone. Also, in order to upgrade, the entire line needs to be shut down for at least a year. If there is enough passenger demand to upgrade, can that passenger load really be carried by buses for a year?

And I agree the transfer does make things more difficult for people on the extremities of the line who want to reach YUS, but an HRT/LRT transfer seems perfectly acceptable to the TTC at Sheppard-Don Mills. The BRT proposal is simply a temporary solution until the funds can be acquired to extend the subway in 1 or both directions.

The BRT on the extremities is easier and cheaper to build, and much easier to upgrade, due to the fact that no tracks need to be re-laid during construction to keep the line moving, just reroute all traffic onto one half the avenue.

 

[jwill]

The more likely conversion option would be to convert the outer ends, either in phases or all at once, from at-grade to grade separated.

That wouldn't require significant closure time, but it would allow subway speeds and reliability with a good capacity (probably enough for eglinton well into the future).

In the meantime we have a single vehicle along the whole route.

 

[Second_in_pie]

And I agree the transfer does make things more difficult for people on the extremities of the line who want to reach YUS, but an HRT/LRT transfer seems perfectly acceptable to the TTC at Sheppard-Don Mills. The BRT proposal is simply a temporary solution until the funds can be acquired to extend the subway in 1 or both directions.

The BRT on the extremities is easier and cheaper to build, and much easier to upgrade, due to the fact that no tracks need to be re-laid during construction to keep the line moving, just reroute all traffic onto one half the avenue.

This is what I thought. BRT at the extremities would be relatively easy to implement, and a subway from Jane to Don Mills would solve the issues with the core of the line. It'd also link with the Jane LRT, Don Mills LRT/DRL, and both branches of the YUS, and would connect pretty significant trip generators.
After that portion, Eglinton will be ripe for extension. West to Pearson, and east to Kennedy Station and Kingston Road would both have a lot of logic to them, and would continue to improve the network significantly in a way a LRT wouldn't be able to provide.

Even using HOV lanes, signal priority and limited stops, BRT could reasonably be implemented at the extremities of Eglinton with very little cost. This would be a temporary measure to provide better service along the extremities while subway extensions get funded.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Will a central subway with BRT ends really be better?

The central section is already being built to HSR standards (so they say). So converting it in the future will not cost very much. What your plan does is force a transfer for all the BRT passengers who can take the LRT all the way to YUS under the current plan.

So, HRT may have a higher capacity, but the extra transfer will likely make the trip a longer one for anybody past Keele or Don Mills.

The answer depends on what the route/line is envisioned to be. If it is going to have close stop spacing for much of it's length than i don't see it being a very economical route for travellers coming from the east end who want to reach the west end/Airport area.

If a subway+BRT could be built for the same or incrementally greater cost would it make sense to have the benefit of a subway through the central region?

 

[gweed123]

The answer depends on what the route/line is envisioned to be. If it is going to have close stop spacing for much of it's length than i don't see it being a very economical route for travellers coming from the east end who want to reach the west end/Airport area.

If a subway+BRT could be built for the same or incrementally greater cost would it make sense to have the benefit of a subway through the central region?

Exactly. The terms "Crosstown" and "LRT" are kind of at odds with eachother. People should NOT be under the impression that this will be a new easy and fast way to get across Toronto. It will not be. LRT is designed to carry medium loads over medium distances.

The best "crosstown" on this corridor would be an express bus that only stops at Kennedy, Don Mills, Yonge, Allen, and Jane, on its way to Pearson. That would mimic car speeds along the corridor.

What it will however be good at is dumping passengers onto an already congested Yonge line, only further clogging up Bloor-Yonge (did someone say DRL???). However, if the DRL is not at least under construction by the time the Crosstown opens, many people will begin to see the futility of building billion dollar rapid transit lines that make it more efficient to reach a backlog on the existing transit lines heading into downtown.

PS: Are there any plans with the Eglinton Crosstown to re-do Eglinton station? I fear that with the increased transfer load, it will become another Union, with it being a central platform and all.

 

[Voltz]

The best crosstown option for Eglinton - if they're only going to build part of the line as rapid transit - is the Bloor-Danforth subway.

And even though it is a subway, taking that route across town can be quite torturous. I'd hope for a midtown GO line, or even the lakeshore GO lines to be useful options.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

And even though it is a subway, taking that route across town can be quite torturous. I'd hope for a midtown GO line, or even the lakeshore GO lines to be useful options.

Well, that's just it...Eglinton as it stands now - not a rapid transit line - won't really be used for any crosstown travel except for a trivial number of random trips like Birchmount & Eglinton to Martin Grove & Eglinton, what with an already existing subway line that terminates at the same place and runs parallel only a few km away and existing and future/potential GO lines that also intercept riders at key 'crosstown' points like Kennedy or the airport. People may not even switch to Eglinton for shorter distances unless the tunnelled segment is isolated from mishaps along the surface segments and unless the surface segments themselves aren't tortuously slow.

 

[Second_in_pie]

^^ Agreed. What we could have had...

Well actually, we could still have that. We could in fact have better, with a subway from Jane to Don Mills and BRT until more subway comes. I don't care about a single mode along the route, or that the tunnel will easily be modified to subway, building a Jane-Don Mills subway paves the road for easy expansion on either side, which will significantly improve the network, spur development, and carry people that LRT won't be able to.

 

[Dan416]

$1.7 billion Eglinton and Sheppard lines

Under two billion for two subway lines and now we're spending many times that for lesser LRT when the city is more congested than it was back then. It's a shame we didn't build more subways back when it was cheaper. And if construction prices keep going up for subway, we'll never be able to afford it if we don't build it now.

 

[Second_in_pie]

^^ Well, that'd be the price of the $1 billion Sheppard and then just Eglinton to like Keele, wouldn't it?

 

[Tuscani01]

^^ Well, that'd be the price of the $1 billion Sheppard and then just Eglinton to like Keele, wouldn't it?

Correct, Eglinton from Eglinton West Station to Black Creek. We are getting way more than that with Transit City.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Correct, Eglinton from Eglinton West Station to Black Creek. We are getting way more than that with Transit City.

In the 14 years, inflation would have increased the price tag by 31%. So instead of $740 million , it would have been $968 million in today's dollars (approximately). And only for the 5 stations: Allen, Dufferin, Caledonia, Keele North, and York Centre stations.

 

[rbt]

In the 14 years, inflation would have increased the price tag by 31%. So instead of $740 million , it would have been $968 million in today's dollars (approximately). And only for the 5 stations: Allen, Dufferin, Caledonia, Keele North, and York Centre stations.

Note that construction costs have increased far above the "basket of goods" inflation rate which you quoted. 14 years is probably closer to double.

 

[nfitz]

In the 14 years, inflation would have increased the price tag by 31%. So instead of $740 million , it would have been $968 million in today's dollars (approximately).

I don't know what price index you are using, but that's a rate a rate of only 1.95% a year over 14 years. Concrete, steele, and labour have all increased more than that.

Surely the most comparable price index is that MTO Tender Price Index which you can see from 1995/96 to 2009/10 has increased from 107.36 to 206.78 which is 92.6% not 31.% - a rate of 4.8% a year. This would have increased the $740-million for the 4.5 km Eglinton West to $1.43-billion - about $325-million per kilometre ... which is comparable to recent estimates.