Eglinton-Crosstown Corridor Debate

[Calrissian]

Literally most of my friends live along the Eglinton corridor in Etobicoke (I went to high school at Richview, so Eglinton and Islington) and I can attest very well to how that road functions. It is CROWDED, rush hour, during mornings, afternoons, nights.. It's a mess. It's the main spine for Etobicoke. I can't even fathom what that will look like with a streetcar taking up two PRECIOUS lanes on that road.

Don't give me that shit that drivers will drop their cars to take this glorified streetcar as well! Consensus in that neighbourhood is that with a subway they'd be tempted, with a streetcar? NO WAY; they're keeping their cars. I spoke to councilor Holyday today who is strongly anti Eglinton LRT.. He told me he gets daily calls from concerned constituents about traffic snarls that will inevitably develop on Eglinton and won't even help their commute times - with all honesty the LRT is only marginally faster than a bus.

Well its happening, so deal with it.

 

[Dan416]

Well its happening, so deal with it.

Is that what you say when a genocide is happening? "Oh well it's happening, so deal with it". An extreme example, maybe, but the fact of the matter is, if something is wrong, you don't just sit down and accept it.

 

[Voltz]

A Genocide?

Are you seriously comparing transit expansion to that?

Of all the completely outrageous criticisms that you have launched against the TTC, that was likely the worst.

 

[Dan416]

A Genocide?

Are you seriously comparing transit expansion to that?

Of all the completely outrageous criticisms that you have launched against the TTC, that was likely the worst.

Um, did you actually read my post?

 

[Standard]

Literally most of my friends live along the Eglinton corridor in Etobicoke (I went to high school at Richview, so Eglinton and Islington) and I can attest very well to how that road functions. It is CROWDED, rush hour, during mornings, afternoons, nights.. It's a mess. It's the main spine for Etobicoke. I can't even fathom what that will look like with a streetcar taking up two PRECIOUS lanes on that road.

Don't give me that shit that drivers will drop their cars to take this glorified streetcar as well! Consensus in that neighbourhood is that with a subway they'd be tempted, with a streetcar? NO WAY; they're keeping their cars. I spoke to councilor Holyday today who is strongly anti Eglinton LRT.. He told me he gets daily calls from concerned constituents about traffic snarls that will inevitably develop on Eglinton and won't even help their commute times - with all honesty the LRT is only marginally faster than a bus.

What two precious lanes are you talking about? Right now Eglinton is a 4 lane road, after the LRT is built it will still have 4 lanes for car traffic. Only things that will be gone are the special left and right turn lanes at intersections.

 

[Rainforest]

To be fair - Eglinton is being designed as a fast LRT line, chiefly due to the central underground section but also due to planned left-turn relocations at major intersections. If the only goal is to provide decent transit for those residing on or near Eglinton, then the LRT is sufficient.

The problem is that for the given cost, we could build subway that really contributes to the whole TTC network ... but instead, we are spending almost same money for a solution with narrow scope.

 

[EnviroTO]

AddEglinton Crosstown LRT
Underground Tunnel Soil Testing - Phase One

Eglinton Crosstown LRT

As part of the Transit City plan, the Eglinton Crosstown Light Rail Transit (LRT) line is one of the most significant transit improvements in Toronto in decades. In the central part of Eglinton the route will run underground between Keele Street and Laird Avenue (see diagram above). Upcoming work on underground station locations is an important first step in the construction process.

Purpose of Upcoming Work

The Environmental Assessment of the Crosstown route has been completed. Work now begins on the design phase of the tunnel and stations. Soil analysis is necessary to assist engineers in the design of underground construction.

Eglinton Tunnel
Starting this summer the project team will begin designing a tunnel that will run beneath the central part of Eglinton from east of Black Creek Drive to a location east of Laird Drive. They will also commence design of the underground stations.

Work Details

During the first phase of work soil samples will be taken from bore holes in the ground approximately every 100-200m along the route where tunnels/underground stations will be located. Several samples will be needed at major intersections. A work zone will be set up; drill rigs and flatbed trucks will be visible on the street.

Soil samples will be drawn between August and winter 2010*
*timelines are subject to change due to weather and/or unforeseen events

Vehicular and Pedestrian Traffic

To expedite the work and minimize inconvenience, there will be temporary lane closures and associated traffic delays. Traffic will be diverted around the work zone where the auger truck and flatbed are located. Pedestrian routes will be maintained at all times. To minimize inconvenience wherever possible, work will take place outside traffic lanes or on public property adjacent to the roadway.

Parking and Vehicle Access

In order to minimize traffic inconvenience, samples may be drawn from locations in the curb lane of the road. Parking will be temporarily prohibited within the work zone reserved for the auger truck and flatbed.

Work Hours

Work is largely scheduled to be carried out between 7am-7pm* to expedite the work and minimize the duration of construction.
*Work hours subject to change.

 

[Standard]

To be fair - Eglinton is being designed as a fast LRT line, chiefly due to the central underground section but also due to planned left-turn relocations at major intersections. If the only goal is to provide decent transit for those residing on or near Eglinton, then the LRT is sufficient.

The problem is that for the given cost, we could build subway that really contributes to the whole TTC network ... but instead, we are spending almost same money for a solution with narrow scope.

You are right, almost everyone would prefer subways over the LRT.

The problem is cost and if we do actually go from LRT to subway for Eglinton we will see the costs soar. Even if we just consider the places where its being tunneled the stations will be more expensive to build than what is currently proposed. Not only that other overhead such as building a new train yard to store all the subway trains that will need to be bought. Then add on the subway cars we need to buy and we might see the total cost almost double.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

...the limited budget meant LRT to almost every city ward. It was not a question of having loads of cash to build subways everywhere.

Who's budget? What budget? Nobody gave the city $x millions and said "go build some transit". Nope the City and the TTC presented the TC plan and went to senior governments to get funding approved.

The technology choice was not made due to funding constraints it was a decision made by council/TTC.

 

[EnviroTO]

What was planned was something they thought was doable in a reasonable timeframe and touched every part of the city in an equal way. What was initially funded is about half of the plan. Now that funding has been cut really all that has been funded is the Sheppard East LRT and the boring of an Eglinton tunnel with no finishings with everything else pushed out beyond the 5 year mark where another government will be able to choose what to do. Really the Eglinton LRT isn't actually funded yet... only the tunnel which could be used by anything is funded. If they had gone with an all subway plan they would have even less kilometers under construction than what there is now and nothing would be actually completed in the next 5 years. If one believes that something is urgent then obviously the completion time is an important consideration.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Metrolinx, TTC hold separate celebrations for Eglinton LRT


http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/art...c-hold-separate-celebrations-for-eglinton-lrt

It was a week of good news at Metrolinx and the TTC. But, in a sign of the deepening tensions, neither agency invited the other to their party. Mayor David Miller and TTC chair Adam Giambrone were all smiles at the podium at Lovat Inc. Friday, where they congratulated the company on a $54 million order for four giant tunnel-boring machines that will be used to dig the underground portion of the new Eglinton light rail line.

Standing on the sidelines, Metrolinx head Rob Prichard wasn’t invited to the podium and was barely acknowledged in the mayor’s remarks even though all $54 million is being provided by the province. Metrolinx issued its own release Wednesday, pre-empting the mayor’s event and failing to provide any mention of the TTC that will build and operate the LRT, even though it will be owned by the province.

 

[Second_in_pie]

The problem is cost and if we do actually go from LRT to subway for Eglinton we will see the costs soar. Even if we just consider the places where its being tunneled the stations will be more expensive to build than what is currently proposed. Not only that other overhead such as building a new train yard to store all the subway trains that will need to be bought. Then add on the subway cars we need to buy and we might see the total cost almost double.

Firstly, costs would not "soar." The Richview corridor is a huge strip of completely vacant land that's basically been reserved for transit. Will costs really "soar" that high if you replaced the section East of Don Mills with a full subway west of Jane, using the richview corridor? It really wouldn't. But compared to how much more useful it would be than the Eastern section and better than putting LRT in the middle of the road rather than using the richview corridor to grade separate the line, even an extra $1 or 2 billion would be a sound investment in my mind. Even if it got finished in a decade, with the Jane-Pearson portion being completed after the central section, it'd be sound transit planning.

 

[Rainforest]

You are right, almost everyone would prefer subways over the LRT.

The problem is cost and if we do actually go from LRT to subway for Eglinton we will see the costs soar. Even if we just consider the places where its being tunneled the stations will be more expensive to build than what is currently proposed.

Not necessarily. Note that the scheduled cost of the 20-km LRT line is 6 billion (in escalated dollars). Even if we assume that those $ 6 billion include a 30% inflation markup (C x 130% = 6 billion), the current-dollar cost would be $ 4.6 billion, or $ 230 million per km. And, this is aggregate for the 11 km of tunnel and 9 km of median ROW. So, it does not look like 1 km of tunnel, or stations, cost less than for subway.

Not only that other overhead such as building a new train yard to store all the subway trains that will need to be bought.

Might be quite the opposite: the subway could probably operate off the expanded Wilson yard, whereas the LRT line definitely needs a new yard since it is not connected to any other line yet.

Then add on the subway cars we need to buy and we might see the total cost almost double.

A subway car costs less than a light rail car of the same capacity. Although, the light rail cars have been recently ordered, and that order might be too expensive to scale down, depends on the contract details.

 

[Rainforest]

Firstly, costs would not "soar." The Richview corridor is a huge strip of completely vacant land that's basically been reserved for transit. Will costs really "soar" that high if you replaced the section East of Don Mills with a full subway west of Jane, using the richview corridor? It really wouldn't. But compared to how much more useful it would be than the Eastern section and better than putting LRT in the middle of the road rather than using the richview corridor to grade separate the line, even an extra $1 or 2 billion would be a sound investment in my mind. Even if it got finished in a decade, with the Jane-Pearson portion being completed after the central section, it'd be sound transit planning.

Agreed.

If things go well for transit, then the subway would be extended to the airport eventually, although Phase II of the subway would cost somewhat more than for LRT. If public finances turn ugly and we can't fund any major transit expansion in future, and at the same time the ridership demand soars - then we would have to cope with transfers at the Jane and Don Mills termini, but at least we would have more core infrastructure to connect buses from the burbs.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

You are right, almost everyone would prefer subways over the LRT.

The problem is cost and if we do actually go from LRT to subway for Eglinton we will see the costs soar. Even if we just consider the places where its being tunneled the stations will be more expensive to build than what is currently proposed. Not only that other overhead such as building a new train yard to store all the subway trains that will need to be bought. Then add on the subway cars we need to buy and we might see the total cost almost double.

For the central tunnel, there'd be little difference in the cost of the stations. New yards are being built for the LRT vehicles, which also need to be purchased, so there's no difference there, either. You're making it seem like yards and vehicles for an LRT line are free.

It would obviously cost more to build the entire line as a subway or as a more grade-separated LRT line, but people who bitch about cost and whine about how the government can't possibly contribute another dollar to the budget invariably don't bother to consider the value of what we're getting for the billions we are spending, let alone the value of marginally more or total grade-separation...a line running in the middle of the street is not rapid transit.

If memory serves me correctly, the busiest stretch of Eglinton is actually the stretch east of Kennedy station, which complicates the wisdom of spending a fortune on the central stretch and throwing a few bones to the east and west.

Who's budget? What budget? Nobody gave the city $x millions and said "go build some transit". Nope the City and the TTC presented the TC plan and went to senior governments to get funding approved.

Unlikely. There's no way the city would have suddenly rewritten its transit plans and created an astronomically unaffordable LRT scheme without some basic assurances from upper levels of government that some quantity of funding was on its way. That's why it was a surprise to almost everybody and why it was first presented with no detail...it was still lines on a napkin. If Miller wasn't told to draft up a wishlist, the funding would have gone towards existing transit plans like the stuff in the RGS and the RTES...and then we could be getting more actual rapid transit and much more local service improvements (instead of a pretty lame Bus City plan).