Eglinton-Crosstown Corridor Debate

[RedRocket191]

If the new mayor makes any noise about wanting the project changed, I have zero doubt they would kill it and offer to start the EA process from the beginning but without funding.

By law, any project cancelled has funding folded into the debt and new funding must be found from a new year. They may simply not find the new funding until the end of their second term in 2019.

Whereas these are now (legally) provincial projects, what authority does a mayor of Toronto have to cancel them?

 

[rbt]

Whereas these are now (legally) provincial projects, what authority does a mayor of Toronto have to cancel them?

The mayor has zero authority to stop or start the project.

Hudak, if elected may be happy to take the cue from the noisy Toronto mayor as an excuse to kill the project to reduce the deficit and instead fund a full EA (old style because voters were unhappy with the accelerated transit EAs) for subway. We know from the Spadina extension that this could defer the project past his first term as premier.

 

[RedRocket191]

The mayor has zero authority to stop or start the project.

Hudak, if elected may be happy to take the cue from the noisy Toronto mayor as an excuse to kill the project to reduce the deficit and instead fund a full EA (old style because voters were unhappy with the accelerated transit EAs) for subway. We know from the Spadina extension that this could defer the project past his first term as premier.

So we end up with nothing for longer. Awesome.

 

[Filip]

I'd be cool with that.. Build Eglinton right even if it takes longer. We wouldn't want a multi-billion dollar mistake now would we, Milleristas?

 

[RedRocket191]

Maybe I've become cycnical in my old age, but I've come to the conclusion that no agency can ever build something "right". At some point one has to move forward on a plan because an alternate proposal is always waiting around the corner.

 

[EnviroTO]

I'd be cool with that.. Build Eglinton right even if it takes longer. We wouldn't want a multi-billion dollar mistake now would we, Milleristas?

A tunnel is a tunnel and the only thing that is going to be built in five years is a tunnel so why stop the project? Regardless of LRT or subway you are going to need a tunnel so cancelling the project to re-evaluate will only be of value if the end solution doesn't require a tunnel. Unless someone is against transit there is no point cancelling the project. The multi-billion project exists in the tunnel. The project is relatively cheap outside that.

 

[Filip]

They built it right on Bloor, Danforth, University, Spadina, Yonge, Allen.. They should build it right on Eglinton and Sheppard.

Transit City will be the costliest and biggest mistake to ever hit rapid transit in Toronto in this city's history. I'm actually in awe some people vehemently support it; makes absolutely not sense to me! It will ruin interconnectivity in the entire city. Passengers will continue to avoid Eglinton and will continue south to Bloor, as usual, hence the low ridership projections FOR LRT. Build a subway and the past projections of 30k-45k pph will materialize. Not to mention a tunnel is being built that will cost the same as a subway yet will run little toy trains in it for 15km.. Are you actually serious? That right there is a colossal waste of money to peddle to certain LRT fetishes that seem to run rampant in City Hall... Btw, how is it that a private citizen, Steve Munro, can influence the TTC on route and technology choices? Unless it's a streetcar this guy will shoot it down, definitely a relic of the Save our Streetcars movement of the 60s and 70s.

I've lost all faith in transit for Toronto.. No improvements just minor patches that will end up being a costly mistake in less than a decade.

 

[Rainforest]

By law, any project cancelled has funding folded into the debt and new funding must be found from a new year. They may simply not find the new funding until the end of their second term in 2019.

To what extent can design / technology change, before it legally becomes a cancellation of the original project?

Half of Finch West LRT is deferred, but they do not treat that as cancellation of one project (Yonge - Humber College) and its replacement with a new one (Keele - Humber).

So, if they decided to build Eglinton HRT subway using funds allocated for LRT - but on the same route - would it be a "change within the project" or a "cancellation plus a new project"?

 

[rbt]

I'd be cool with that.. Build Eglinton right even if it takes longer. We wouldn't want a multi-billion dollar mistake now would we, Milleristas?

Killing the subway of the 90's has worked out great so far. If we're lucky, and entire generation will have started and ended their career between the time the Eglinton subway started the first time and something (perhaps the original BRT proposal?) is eventually competed.

 

[Filip]

I just had a lot of fun calling every councilor's office along Eglinton (From Holyday in Etobicoke out to Parker near the Don Valley) and told them what a farce the Eglinton LRT is... All the assistants told me the councilor agrees, that constituents constantly call to complain about a streetcar line that won't do anything to alleviate congestion and how it should be a subway. One even told me the city is currently 'sitting and waiting' to see what is to be done after the elections, that subway support is growing rapidly.

Hopefully this is canceled before it gets more expensive.

 

[EnviroTO]

Not to mention a tunnel is being built that will cost the same as a subway yet will run little toy trains in it for 15km.. Are you actually serious?

But you want to build a tunnel so unless you are suggesting money is not well spent on a tunnel there is no argument against the expense of the tunnel which is the largest expense. You can really only complain against the expense of the tunnel if (a) the tunnel could not be made to carry a subway affordably, or (b) you favour a solution which gets rid of the tunnel.

When I look at the Metro do Porto videos on YouTube and ask myself if I would want to see a longer version of that running under Eglinton my answer is yes. That looks great to me. Far better than what we have now. Far better than waiting. If you get your dream subway built the day after you die it is of no use to you. We only get value from what is available to us as we need it. Once you start pushing things out 20 years into the future there is no point getting excited about it because you will either not get to use it because your life or lack thereof will have taken you somewhere else, or you will barely use it having built a life around a solution where it didn't exist.

 

[rbt]

To what extent can design / technology change, before it legally becomes a cancellation of the original project?

Good question. It's mostly accounting. Whether you cancel the $6B and create a new $6B package within seconds of each-other or just shift the expense dates is accounting style.

The premiere, Hudak in this case, may opt to cancel the current project and order a new subway EA without replacing funding, or with funding allocated for a construction start immediately before the 2016 provincial election.

I'm not very familiar with Hudak (ate dinner, etc. with Harris a few times prior to his premiership) but his speeches indicate he strongly believes the work Harris did was incomplete. To anticipate a pro-transit platform from anyone other than McGuinty (and I include other provincial liberals here too) would be asking for a lot.

IMO, the best way to continue is to thank McGuinty for work completed and ask for DRL funding as an election promise. Expending McGuinty's political capital by opposing funded projects is a quick way to end up without capital or operations subsidies from the province again.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

You can really only complain against the expense of the tunnel if (a) the tunnel could not be made to carry a subway affordably,

There is no "if." Eglinton can't be affordably converted to a subway line, especially when you remember that a conversion would just create a subway that ended where the tunnel ended unless you spend billions more converting the on-street stretches (on top of the billions it will have cost to build the stretches outside the tunnel), too. Converting just the central tunnel into a subway line would be extremely pointless.

 

[Tewder]

That looks great to me. Far better than what we have now. Far better than waiting. If you get your dream subway built the day after you die it is of no use to you. We only get value from what is available to us as we need it. Once you start pushing things out 20 years into the future there is no point getting excited about it because you will either not get to use it because your life or lack thereof will have taken you somewhere else, or you will barely use it having built a life around a solution where it didn't exist.

That's the nature of this kind of grand infrastructure project. It's not about 'you' (no offense). It's about vision, and we expect our leaders to have it. If they'd had it twenty or thirty years ago you'd be enjoying all kinds of new subway lines now, just as future generations will be enjoying the ones we build. The problem is not the scale of this project and the seemingly endless time waiting for it, it's the fact that politicians are not serving their constituents responsibly in these matters on an ongoing basis by making the required investments. Far better for them to spend money buying votes and pacifying noisy interest groups like cyclists (not that I'am against cyclists!!).

 

[Filip]

Nobody really answered my question here; but why would the TTC bulldoze through this project, pushing it so strongly and insisting upon an LRT when councilors along the corridor don't want it, neither do the citizens of Toronto living on it?

The majority of my friends live on Eglinton in Etobicoke and I'm there quite often (in fact I'm going biking up there very soon); thing is, that road is crowded, constantly, off peak, on peak.. It is a mess... They cannot imagine Eglinton with 2 lanes missing (again what's with the TTC's insistence on putting it down the middle of the road when an entire field exists to the north?)
This entire project seems to be flying into the face of everyone living on the corridor... Quite frankly my friends are pissed, as are their neighbours and parents.. In fact my buddy's dad is head structural engineer of the TTC (they live near Eglinton/Kipling, Ill have to ask him what in the eff is the TTC thinking as he is also vehemently against this LRT.