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East Bayfront: Bayside (Waterfront Toronto/Hines/Tridel, Pelli Clark Pelli et al)

kkgg7 said:
I am just surprised that many actually throw words such as "impressive" or "beautiful" to describle any part of central waterfront/Queens Quay. They are probably fine for a typical Canadian city with less than 500K people, but for a city of 2.6 million, the country's financial center, largest city? I have to say the standards are set extremely low.

I am not "ignoring" them. Just extremely, extremely underwhelmed by whatever is there. I have been there for probably 8 or 10 times, but still when I try to remember it, I can hardly form a picture. It is just messy bits and pieces. The first time I went there, I have to say, I was very very disappointed. A million miles below my expectation.
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I have to agree a bit with you on that, even though Toronto is no Hamburg, Barcelona or Sydney, its definitely going the right direction to spruce up the waterfront..
Of course, if i was a tourist visiting Toronto and had traveled many places around the world..... i would probably not have many memories of the harbourfront, but then again, Toronto is not that tourist waterfront trap trying to impress visitors...
 
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Well, EBF/Sugar Beach/Sherbourne Park certainly is beautiful. Ditto the West 8 Wavedecks - and these are internationally acclaimed projects (check out the various issues of LAM and Paisea . One does have to wonder why someone who think the Harbourfront is a yawn would go there 8, 10 times though.

AoD
 
I agree with kkgg that the waterfront is below expectations and as a vancouverite originally I can say we are behind even Canadian cities on that score. The problem seems to have been all the aborted plans. I remember reading that there was supposed to have been a canal system and new island chain built in the 60s, a plan that Jane jacobs praised as one of the most significant plans of the time. But no follow through. I do believe also that many harboured a desire to return to toronto's industrial past and kept the lands undeveloped due to that. I don't think it is that bad though and I also think the potential is greater than he thinks - bland towers notwithstanding. Ugh
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
Well, EBF/Sugar Beach/Sherbourne Park certainly is beautiful. Ditto the West 8 Wavedecks - and these are internationally acclaimed projects (check out the various issues of LAM and Paisea . One does have to wonder why someone who think the Harbourfront is a yawn would go there 8, 10 times though.

AoD
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I do give credit for the recent development such as Sherbourne Commons. Things are being put together there for sure.
Yes, i went there for 8 or 10 times during the past 4-5 years, and most of the times to accompany a visitor. Still not liking it even a bit. If we had the quality of Chicago's waterfront, I would have gone there a lot more frequent, considering I am only 10-15 minutes walking distance away.
It is time for many to accept central waterfront design is sub-standard. We all want Chicago's waterfront, we just don't want to admit it as if doing so equals admitting Chicago as a city is superior.
 
Kkgg don't even go there no one here says toronto is better than Chicago in terms of design and I have no problem saying it. And We are saying the waterfront is substandard - we just aren't writing it off completely with a haughty disdainful attitude. Of course some would say our waterfront has its charms compared to chicago and definitely toronto is better for quality of life. But overall don't be silly just to insult yet again your adopted denizens.
 
agoraflaneur:

I don't think anyone would disagree that taken as a whole, the waterfront is less than desirable - that's why we have WT. The assertion that no part of QQ/Central Waterfront is beautiful must be challenged on the other hand.

AoD
 
It is time for many to accept central waterfront design is sub-standard. We all want Chicago's waterfront, we just don't want to admit it as if doing so equals admitting Chicago as a city is superior.
Click to expand...

That realization is nothing new - that's why we have WT - we have accepted that years ago. And no, we don't all want Chicago's waterfront - we want a waterfront that is well designed and used - not a slavish copy of any city.

AoD
 
I too, as a new resident of Toronto, think that the Waterfront and DT will evolve and become amazing. I have seen so much happen in the 3 short years I have been here.
 
Thanks a lot for posting these I really look forward to them.

Any idea when phase 1 will enter sales ? Also when will phase 2 / the office component launch ?



Any more info on the other parcel i.e. the home depot land, I thought we'd get renderings or an idea yesterday ?
 
"We all want Chicago's waterfront, we just don't want to admit it as if doing so equals admitting Chicago as a city is superior."

I don't really want to perpetuate this Chicago issue but I just wanted to add kkgg7 that while I agree Chicago has a superior waterfront to Toronto I do not like Chicago's waterfront. I do not personally find it to be a desireable model for emulation. The superiority to Toronto I account for with the quality of their institutions. The fact that they have amazing institutions to me does not make up for the hostility their model presents to use of the waterfront for working and living.

On the other hand my criticism of the Toronto's waterfront is not the lack of high quality institutions, but rather the zoning and ownership structures. The East Bayfront will succeed only with connections that graft it to the "real" city to the north. Without a diverse range of property that can be bought and sold in a haphazard fashion by free and independent interests the lands themselves can never function or be self-sustaining as normal neighbourhoods are elsewhere in the city.
 
TrickyRicky said:
On the other hand my criticism of the Toronto's waterfront is not the lack of high quality institutions, but rather the zoning and ownership structures. The East Bayfront will succeed only with connections that graft it to the "real" city to the north. Without a diverse range of property that can be bought and sold in a haphazard fashion by free and independent interests the lands themselves can never function or be self-sustaining as normal neighbourhoods are elsewhere in the city.
Click to expand...

The whole thing looks and feels a little too parceled to ever succeed in emulating the kind of 'normal' neighbourhoods you refer to.

... and not to open the Chicago/Toronto debate again but Chicago's waterfront succeeds partly because nobody lives there. In other words the waterfront isn't a neighbourhood it is a destination for tourists and locals alike, and a destination that is closely 'grafted' or linked to areas where people in Chicago live. Toronto's boardwalks and slivers of parkland do little to compensate for the private development that is hogging up the space.

I'm not suggesting that everything or anything is wrong with the plan for Toronto only that it will be different from Chicago's but not necessarily 'better', which is subjective anyway. As a place to live and work by the water's edge Toronto's waterfront will function very different than Chicago's and this will make some people very happy. For me, I prefer the public institutions, open parks and spaces you find in Chicago and the interconnection it still manages to maintain with the city proper. Toronto has some of this here and there, and these tend to be the bits that I enjoy the most.
 
A demolition permit has been applied for for all the old buildings left on the south side of Queen's Quay from parliament to Sherbourne Common.


Application: Demolition Folder (DM) Status: Not Started

Location: 261 QUEENS QUAY E
TORONTO ON M5A 1B6

Ward 28: Toronto Centre-Rosedale

Application#: 11 331756 DEM 00 DM Accepted Date: Dec 29, 2011

Project: Other Demolition

Description: Proposal to demolish Marine Terminal and Yatch Club. Convenience address is 263 queens Quay E.
 
The waterfront warehouse/film studio is now being torn down. They are about half way through the demolition. This is the building just east of the Sherbourne Common Pavilion.
 
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