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Dundas Street West Revitalization

^^^ Finally, some common sense. It amazes me that anyone finds old, dirty, tilted poles covered in rusty staples, charming. (or even acceptable) Thank god (or whoever) these poles are not going up in newer areas like the West Don Lands and the new Regent Park. They don't have them on The Esplanade or in St. Lawrence (Front St) so I guess the east side is lacking in that rugged, frontier charm and looking all the better for it.
 
Whoa! Vitriol and anger! Of course I would prefer to have the wires buried. But that doesn't mean I have to be disappointed with everything. Toronto is still a frontier town, sorry to say. Drive for one hour, and voila, a frontier such as most of the world doesn't know - nothing for hundreds of kilometers, thousands and onward to the arctic! Again, I don't love these poles. I would actually love to see them gone. But while they are here I appreciate something about them, that they remind me of times past, that they infuse a certain aesthetic that doesn't exist elsewhere I have been in the context of a developed city. When they are gone, I won't miss them. In the meantime, I find some beauty. Fleurs du mal.
 
I like your attitude but I'd rather see those poles decried categorically and in every way. Any amount of 'acceptance' whatsoever and those poles continue to stay.
 
Being relatively new to Toronto, I can't understand how they are still here. Anyone care to enlighten me? Have there been significant discussions?

It seems to me that a certain lassitude has set in here that infects the whole city, which is evidenced most palpably on the subway. It is simply disgusting and wrong. I decry that categorically. Somehow I find the poles slightly less categorically wrong. Maybe it's their organic quality, bringing the wood of the land back into the city, the messy network of the past jutting up into the present. But here I am justifying them aesthetically again!
 
It seems to me that a certain lassitude has set in here that infects the whole city, which is evidenced most palpably on the subway.

Though maybe even more palpably on the streetcar system--or at least, said system's survival, relative to similar systems throughout N America.

Which may go a long ways t/w explaining (and even justifying) said "lassitude".
 
Being relatively new to Toronto, I can't understand how they are still here. Anyone care to enlighten me? Have there been significant discussions?

It seems to me that a certain lassitude has set in here that infects the whole city, which is evidenced most palpably on the subway. It is simply disgusting and wrong. I decry that categorically. Somehow I find the poles slightly less categorically wrong. Maybe it's their organic quality, bringing the wood of the land back into the city, the messy network of the past jutting up into the present. But here I am justifying them aesthetically again!

Just look what happened on St. Clair Avenue West when the neighbourhood wanted to put the electrical wires underground on that street. NIMBYs started an uproar because to put the wires underground, they had to dig up the street and sidewalk to put them underground. That is why they didn't do that on Roncesvalles Avenue, to avoid extra construction time and dirt trying to put the wires underground. People forget that construction is needed to put the wires underground.
 
I just noticed the new benches and bike rings the other day - they look great!

Also, does anyone know what's happening at the North-East corner of Dundas and Sheridan?
 
Just look what happened on St. Clair Avenue West when the neighbourhood wanted to put the electrical wires underground on that street. NIMBYs started an uproar because to put the wires underground, they had to dig up the street and sidewalk to put them underground. That is why they didn't do that on Roncesvalles Avenue, to avoid extra construction time and dirt trying to put the wires underground. People forget that construction is needed to put the wires underground.

Ah, so everyone just cheaped out. Typical. I can't understand how the construction in the City is so ill coordinated and time consuming.

I just noticed the new benches and bike rings the other day - they look great!

Also, does anyone know what's happening at the North-East corner of Dundas and Sheridan?

Yes I am very excited by the design quality and the addition to the streetscape.
As for Sheridan, there used to be a tire shop there and it has been vacant for a couple of years. There are not any current plans that I am aware of, but given Nero and the other proposal at Dovercourt, it can't be too far behind. On the other hand, there may have to be some fallow provisions due to the previous industrial use. Anything with gas storage tanks has to be left for five years to "cleanse" IIRC.
 
Hasn't hydro been buried for years along Dundas West? I haven't been out that ways in a while but vaguely recall only seeing ttc power & street lighting overhead lines. I don't see why these few remaining lines couldn't be buried for a reasonable price.
 
LOL Most people just think it looks ugly and cluttered.

::Begin sarcasm::

Clutter is certainly a terrible thing in cities:

Exhibit A: Look at that mess! Wires everywhere!
baldwinafterrain_metrix_x_p.jpg


Exhibit B: Now that's more like it! Nice and tidy.
StripMall.jpg


::end sarcasm::

Give me spider webs of streetcar and hydro wires any day!
 
Yes I am very excited by the design quality and the addition to the streetscape.
As for Sheridan, there used to be a tire shop there and it has been vacant for a couple of years. There are not any current plans that I am aware of, but given Nero and the other proposal at Dovercourt, it can't be too far behind. On the other hand, there may have to be some fallow provisions due to the previous industrial use. Anything with gas storage tanks has to be left for five years to "cleanse" IIRC.

Unfortunately a few of the benches and artwork have been tagged *sigh*. And there appears to be some kind of machinery on the Dundas-Sheridan site - it's big and yellow and has a big scoopy shovel thing. (Clearly machinery is not my forte. I played with My Little Ponies when I was a kid).
 
Ugly poles

::Begin sarcasm::

Clutter is certainly a terrible thing in cities:

Exhibit A: Look at that mess! Wires everywhere!
baldwinafterrain_metrix_x_p.jpg


Exhibit B: Now that's more like it! Nice and tidy.
StripMall.jpg


::end sarcasm::

Give me spider webs of streetcar and hydro wires any day!

And ugly (& shameful to us ) wooden poles across the street from elegant AGO?!!!!!!!!.......
 
And ugly (& shameful to us ) wooden poles across the street from elegant AGO?!!!!!!!!.......

Gehry knew what kind of neighbourhood the AGO was being designed for. He put that reflective visor on its front to reflect the more textured streetscape on the other side of Dundas. You want to build on the edge of Chinatown, you're gonna have clutter. It ain't pretty, but it's wonderful.

If you feel ashamed of some wooden poles, I feel sorry for you. I'd be more ashamed if we keep yuppie-fying the character right out of Toronto. Leave the spotless, well-manicured landscapes in the suburbs and the CBD.
 
::Begin sarcasm::

Clutter is certainly a terrible thing in cities:

Exhibit A: Look at that mess! Wires everywhere!
baldwinafterrain_metrix_x_p.jpg


Exhibit B: Now that's more like it! Nice and tidy.
StripMall.jpg


::end sarcasm::

Give me spider webs of streetcar and hydro wires any day!

Is this whole post meant to be sarcastic? This comparison can't be serious. You have a streetscape of an old urban market street overflowing with diversity versus a recently-built suburban strip mall that's not even built along an actual street. Take out the wires in Kensington Market and get some artists to design some interesting street lighting, and Kensington Market would be the same funky and vibrant place and even more interesting. One's focus would be more on the buildings, businesses and street life.

Cleaning these things up isn't going to remove character; it's going to bring the focus to what actually matters on urban streets: people, street life, businesses, patios, architecture, art, greenery, and urban design. It would only enhance the market because the wires distract and obscure things. In the photo of Kensington Market posted above, it would be better to see all the storefronts and diverse built form on the right hand side as opposed to the mess of wires. It would be even better to highlight the significance of the market and the love that people have for it with unusual and attractive street lights.

It's no surprise that one major corridor that's free of wires is also among the most diverse and vibrant: Bloor and Danforth. Bloor Street in the Annex is one of the most sublime walks in the city. The street is packed with people, the concentration of diverse businesses is huge, you may see street musicians, restored buildings, and everything interesting in urban streetscapes. Without the wires, people are encouraged to look for these things. Koreatown is different and unique in character but still lively, interesting and rather modern and sleek without wires. Cleaning these things up puts the focus on the real aspects of a neighbourhood's identity, rather than erasing them.
 
Is this whole post meant to be sarcastic? This comparison can't be serious. You have a streetscape of an old urban market street overflowing with diversity versus a recently-built suburban strip mall that's not even built along an actual street. Take out the wires in Kensington Market and get some artists to design some interesting street lighting, and Kensington Market would be the same funky and vibrant place and even more interesting. One's focus would be more on the buildings, businesses and street life.

Cleaning these things up isn't going to remove character; it's going to bring the focus to what actually matters on urban streets: people, street life, businesses, patios, architecture, art, greenery, and urban design. It would only enhance the market because the wires distract and obscure things. In the photo of Kensington Market posted above, it would be better to see all the storefronts and diverse built form on the right hand side as opposed to the mess of wires. It would be even better to highlight the significance of the market and the love that people have for it with unusual and attractive street lights.

It's no surprise that one major corridor that's free of wires is also among the most diverse and vibrant: Bloor and Danforth. Bloor Street in the Annex is one of the most sublime walks in the city. The street is packed with people, the concentration of diverse businesses is huge, you may see street musicians, restored buildings, and everything interesting in urban streetscapes. Without the wires, people are encouraged to look for these things. Koreatown is different and unique in character but still lively, interesting and rather modern and sleek without wires. Cleaning these things up puts the focus on the real aspects of a neighbourhood's identity, rather than erasing them.

My point is that hydro wires aren't a crime against humanity. They add to the cluttered, haphazard vibrancy of the streetscape. I wouldn't put them in for the hell of it, and the vibrancy of a street certainly doesn't depend on them (as the Annex demonstrates), but I'm not going to cry out in embarrassment just because our streets continue to have wires overhead.

The appeal of Kensington Market is precisely it's DIY, unplanned condition, where urban form just gets layered over and over what came before (hence why it's so popular with hippies and anarchists). To start ripping out elements of the streetscape in Kensington and replacing it with centrally planned, "art-infused" street furniture would do harm to the neighbourhood. It would bring it closer to it's logical opposite, the suburban strip mall: centrally designed, well maintained, and aimed precisely at getting consumers to storefronts with little distraction.

Now, I'm not arguing that every neighbourhood in Toronto needs to be like Kensington market. Nor that removing the hydro wires and redesigning Dundas will turn it into a strip mall. I'm simply trying to demonstrate that ugliness and clutter in an urban landscape is not something we should wish away too hastily.
 

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