Dundas St Rapid Transit (Metrolinx, Mississauga, Halton Region, CoT)

[drum118]

Confusing. So what is Alvin proposing? We construct the BRT to be upgradable to an LRT in the future?
I would rather see them focus on constructing the Erin Mills, Derry and Dixie BRTs.

The Dundas BRT is partly or fully funded at this time and it can be upgraded to an LRT down the road like the transitway .

I realizes there is away around Hydro One opposing an LRT line under their wires and that is using batteries and having charging stations at various stations to top up the battery.

At the same time, there is a place for a station for the LRT at TTC Kipling station by using the original platform for the RT that Mississauga turn down that was to be free for them on the south side of the bus bay area. The line would have to be elevated over TTC Parking lot to get to Dundas to be at grade.

As for building a true BRT on Erin Mills and Derry, ridership is not there now nor in 20 years. The problem for Dixie is truck traffic north of Eglinton where a true BRT is needed to deal with traffic. South of Eglinton only needs express to Dundas and the new QEW overpass wasn't built for a ROW on it.

 

[drum118]

Staff will be bring back a report in Dec on the LRT, but the Commissioner is moving the BRT plan using a 5-10 year plan to get the LRT to where things are today for the BRT.

The BRT cannot be upgraded to an LRT as the relocation of utilizes was left out to save $7 million to get the BRT built. Another example of narrow vision when it comes to transit in the city/

The Commissioner said it could take 5 years to see what the vision of an LRT would look like as well get to 15% design stage and that is a bunch of crap. The big different between an BRT and LRT is the location of substations and land for an OMSF. There is enough land near CP corridor east of Dixie for an OMSF. It will take no more than 2 years or less to modify the EA.

The big question is how is the extra cost going to be funded, by who and can the current funding be delay to allow the conversion to LRT as well increase of cost??

There are 2 flood zone with one at Dixie and the other at Etobicoke Creek and what impact do they have on the LRT not address by the BRT plan.

The subway extension was raise again and it would run to Hurontario by Dundas

I guess my comment surrounding Dundas and Hurontario intersection turn on a light bulb as well the width of Dundas from Cawthra to Hurontario. The talk of buying land came up as you cannot try building an BRT/LRT with only one lane of traffic for the next 20-30 and rely on developers to redeveloped the existing land to get the extra land for the new 45m street width.

The mayor also stated Ford will not be funding any large transit projects in Mississauga for the next 10 year outside of the Milton expansion.

A number of councilors think Derry or Eglinton is where the next East-West LRT should be built, not Dundas. Very far out to lunch thinking as neither of these corridors will see the ridership like Dundas does today.

 

[sixrings]

Staff will be bring back a report in Dec on the LRT, but the Commissioner is moving the BRT plan using a 5-10 year plan to get the LRT to where things are today for the BRT.

The BRT cannot be upgraded to an LRT as the relocation of utilizes was left out to save $7 million to get the BRT built. Another example of narrow vision when it comes to transit in the city/

The Commissioner said it could take 5 years to see what the vision of an LRT would look like as well get to 15% design stage and that is a bunch of crap. The big different between an BRT and LRT is the location of substations and land for an OMSF. There is enough land near CP corridor east of Dixie for an OMSF. It will take no more than 2 years or less to modify the EA.

The big question is how is the extra cost going to be funded, by who and can the current funding be delay to allow the conversion to LRT as well increase of cost??

There are 2 flood zone with one at Dixie and the other at Etobicoke Creek and what impact do they have on the LRT not address by the BRT plan.

The subway extension was raise again and it would run to Hurontario by Dundas

I guess my comment surrounding Dundas and Hurontario intersection turn on a light bulb as well the width of Dundas from Cawthra to Hurontario. The talk of buying land came up as you cannot try building an BRT/LRT with only one lane of traffic for the next 20-30 and rely on developers to redeveloped the existing land to get the extra land for the new 45m street width.

The mayor also stated Ford will not be funding any large transit projects in Mississauga for the next 10 year outside of the Milton expansion.

A number of councilors think Derry or Eglinton is where the next East-West LRT should be built, not Dundas. Very far out to lunch thinking as neither of these corridors will see the ridership like Dundas does today.

Derry over dundas for LRT? What the heck!

Milton spur to MCC?

Back to a dundas subway. It’s never going to die.

 

[Bojaxs]

Staff will be bring back a report in Dec on the LRT, but the Commissioner is moving the BRT plan using a 5-10 year plan to get the LRT to where things are today for the BRT.

The BRT cannot be upgraded to an LRT as the relocation of utilizes was left out to save $7 million to get the BRT built. Another example of narrow vision when it comes to transit in the city/

The Commissioner said it could take 5 years to see what the vision of an LRT would look like as well get to 15% design stage and that is a bunch of crap. The big different between an BRT and LRT is the location of substations and land for an OMSF. There is enough land near CP corridor east of Dixie for an OMSF. It will take no more than 2 years or less to modify the EA.

The big question is how is the extra cost going to be funded, by who and can the current funding be delay to allow the conversion to LRT as well increase of cost??

There are 2 flood zone with one at Dixie and the other at Etobicoke Creek and what impact do they have on the LRT not address by the BRT plan.

The subway extension was raise again and it would run to Hurontario by Dundas

I guess my comment surrounding Dundas and Hurontario intersection turn on a light bulb as well the width of Dundas from Cawthra to Hurontario. The talk of buying land came up as you cannot try building an BRT/LRT with only one lane of traffic for the next 20-30 and rely on developers to redeveloped the existing land to get the extra land for the new 45m street width.

The mayor also stated Ford will not be funding any large transit projects in Mississauga for the next 10 year outside of the Milton expansion.

A number of councilors think Derry or Eglinton is where the next East-West LRT should be built, not Dundas. Very far out to lunch thinking as neither of these corridors will see the ridership like Dundas does today.

Alvin said he wanted to ensure discussions on a potential LRT didn't distract from BRT construction. Yet it feels very much like that's what's happening.

I would be content with a BRT rather than an LRT on Dundas. It would be easier to extend a BRT all the way to Waterdown from Etobicoke.

 

[drum118]

Alvin said he wanted to ensure discussions on a potential LRT didn't distract from BRT construction. Yet it feels very much like that's what's happening.

I would be content with a BRT rather than an LRT on Dundas. It would be easier to extend a BRT all the way to Waterdown from Etobicoke.

If you want to replace the BRT with an LRT at a later date, you have to go back to square one and start over a triple the cost not doing it today, if will most likely be more. At the same time, you have the street torn up 3 time if the first being the building the BRT. the 2nd ripping it up and relocating the unities and the 3rd for building the LRT.

At what great cost and ridership point do you say the building of the BRT was a Mistake as well development not supporting this line to Waterdown??

 

[ARG1]

If you want to replace the BRT with an LRT at a later date, you have to go back to square one and start over a triple the cost not doing it today, if will most likely be more. At the same time, you have the street torn up 3 time if the first being the building the BRT. the 2nd ripping it up and relocating the unities and the 3rd for building the LRT.

At what great cost and ridership point do you say the building of the BRT was a Mistake as well development not supporting this line to Waterdown??

I'd rather wait until Dundas actually gets the ridership to justify any form of LRT. Today, the various Dundas bus routes combined get less riders than the 501 Zum alone. The 1/101 combined together have a peak hourly ridership of 1400, compared to the 2700ish peak hourly ridership the 1 and 501 receive combined (501 Zum gets 1700). For context, the LRVs that will run on Hurontario have a capacity of 600, which means that at current demand, a dundas LRT would have to run every 20m during peak hours to satiate its capacity.

All that for a short line that will force everyone to transfer at Hurontario anyway, rather than providing a single transferless service from Kipling to Waterdown (which seems to be Metrolinx' goal).

 

[sixrings]

I'd rather wait until Dundas actually gets the ridership to justify any form of LRT. Today, the various Dundas bus routes combined get less riders than the 501 Zum alone. The 1/101 combined together have a peak hourly ridership of 1400, compared to the 2700ish peak hourly ridership the 1 and 501 receive combined (501 Zum gets 1700). For context, the LRVs that will run on Hurontario have a capacity of 600, which means that at current demand, a dundas LRT would have to run every 20m during peak hours to satiate its capacity.

All that for a short line that will force everyone to transfer at Hurontario anyway, rather than providing a single transferless service from Kipling to Waterdown (which seems to be Metrolinx' goal).

to be fair hurontario is peels version of yonge street and people travelling through yonge street have had to transfer for years.

 

[BakedPasta]

I'd rather wait until Dundas actually gets the ridership to justify any form of LRT. Today, the various Dundas bus routes combined get less riders than the 501 Zum alone. The 1/101 combined together have a peak hourly ridership of 1400, compared to the 2700ish peak hourly ridership the 1 and 501 receive combined (501 Zum gets 1700). For context, the LRVs that will run on Hurontario have a capacity of 600, which means that at current demand, a dundas LRT would have to run every 20m during peak hours to satiate its capacity.

All that for a short line that will force everyone to transfer at Hurontario anyway, rather than providing a single transferless service from Kipling to Waterdown (which seems to be Metrolinx' goal).

Agree. The money saved would be better spent improving the Milton line which would provide service between Kipling and Cooksville/MCC, likely faster than an LRT.

 

[Wm Perkins Bull]

I'd rather wait until Dundas actually gets the ridership to justify any form of LRT. Today, the various Dundas bus routes combined get less riders than the 501 Zum alone. The 1/101 combined together have a peak hourly ridership of 1400, compared to the 2700ish peak hourly ridership the 1 and 501 receive combined (501 Zum gets 1700). For context, the LRVs that will run on Hurontario have a capacity of 600, which means that at current demand, a dundas LRT would have to run every 20m during peak hours to satiate its capacity.

All that for a short line that will force everyone to transfer at Hurontario anyway, rather than providing a single transferless service from Kipling to Waterdown (which seems to be Metrolinx' goal).

I charted the 1/501 ridership v the Dundas bus ridership. Caveat, BT ridership is from Fall 2023, MiWay ridership is October-December 2022 (that is what I had from Ryan).

Regarding the LRVs, from what I understand, the Hurontario LRVs are two car consists at 200 per car, for a 400 per consist capacity. at a bus every 20 minutes, that is 3 per hour per direction and 6 per hour total. That yields a capacity of 2400, which with current ridership would reach 50% of capacity for 3-5 hours a day. 20 minutes is also the functional floor for service, and frankly it should be 15 minute headways. I do not see how Mississauga could operate this without serious financial harm to MiWay's budget. What makes this worse is that the combined Dundas ridership, it is likely a significant percent are UTM students, which will not be served by a Dundas East LRT, resulting in even worse utilization rates. \

If I were Mississauga, instead of asking for an LRT which financially will harm the City, I would ask for money for buses, to fill up the new MSF.

 

[afransen]

I'd rather wait until Dundas actually gets the ridership to justify any form of LRT. Today, the various Dundas bus routes combined get less riders than the 501 Zum alone. The 1/101 combined together have a peak hourly ridership of 1400, compared to the 2700ish peak hourly ridership the 1 and 501 receive combined (501 Zum gets 1700). For context, the LRVs that will run on Hurontario have a capacity of 600, which means that at current demand, a dundas LRT would have to run every 20m during peak hours to satiate its capacity.

All that for a short line that will force everyone to transfer at Hurontario anyway, rather than providing a single transferless service from Kipling to Waterdown (which seems to be Metrolinx' goal).

I don't think the BRT is designed for people to ride from Waterdown to Kipling. There is value in just not creating discontinuity.

 

[ARG1]

I don't think the BRT is designed for people to ride from Waterdown to Kipling. There is value in just not creating discontinuity.

I meant in the hypothetical sense

 

[toaster29]

Transit on a grid = good planning. Toronto and the GTA has this obsession with suburban style sprawl rapid transit lines that twist and turn, and avoid poor areas to hit wealthier neighbourhoods. A continuous line along one street (Dundas) is good.

 

[north-of-anything]

Transit on a grid = good planning. Toronto and the GTA has this obsession with suburban style sprawl rapid transit lines that twist and turn, and avoid poor areas to hit wealthier neighbourhoods. A continuous line along one street (Dundas) is good.

There is a key advantage in "suburban style sprawl" lines in that with higher order transportation that does not require street operation, you can detour around bottlenecks and hit nodes on different corridors. Imagine if the Line 1 Vaughan extension continued along Dufferin - it's potentially the worst corridor for north-south transit beyond the 401 in terms of destinations and city-building opportunities.

I don't think the orientation of the line is a big problem with the Dundas East LRT proposal - the big issue in my mind is that it feels like it's designed to ferry people from Downtown Mississauga into Toronto. It's a very suburban mindset that runs counter to the Dundas BRT's goal of regional integration and encouraging travel in both directions.

 

[afransen]

Transit on a grid = good planning. Toronto and the GTA has this obsession with suburban style sprawl rapid transit lines that twist and turn, and avoid poor areas to hit wealthier neighbourhoods. A continuous line along one street (Dundas) is good.

I don't think there is anything magical about keeping a line on one street. The value is being able to move between destinations quickly, and with few transfers. Straight lines generally help with that, but making people transfer to hit a major destination instead of diverting the line to reach it is not always a great idea.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

There are also so many better, not necessarily significantly more costly, ways to greatly improve the Downtown / Subway / MCC connection, starting with a 427 transitway extension and going all the up to Transitway rail conversions and 403/401 corridors that don't shut the transitway down.

Really I am probably most fond of committing to the OL extension closing the gap in the loop concept and running to Renforth ASAP; seems like Sheppard + OL to Renforth and Unionville + Cambridge LRT + Milton 2WAD would be a pretty compelling election goody package.