Dubai: An Architectural Masterpiece layered on a Third World Country?

[jenny_zhang]

Nice try, scarberian. You know what you said initially and how it would be interpreted.

Well, language *and* cultural barrier-based; and whitey might not help through condescending behaviour, or just a woodenheadedness like Americans bringing snowshoes to Canada in July...

Also, the Chinese community particularly in that area has enough population to be able to close ourselves off without much hit economically. I have a relative who owns a restaurant and never really has any non-Chinese customers and doesn't want them either. It doesn't matter because the amount of Chinese potential customers is enough to pay his rent. If a non-Chinese guy walks in he'll get a stare or two and awkward service. Pacific Mall is a slightly less severe version of this but a bit more "mainstream". Since the government policy encourages cultural separation I can't see this changing any time soon but I hope so. I hear they're also building a south Asian mall soon. I personally wonder if this the right direction for Canadian society but whatever.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Nice try, scarberian. You know what you said initially and how it would be interpreted.

Well, yeah, I was referring to the commonly known occurrence of immigrants of colour opening small businesses. You're not going to find many immigrant professors or plumbers of colour in small towns, but you will find small business owners. Also, if there's any white folk in a small town used to seeing people of colour mosey on through, it'd be someone in a convenience store or restaurant.

I can't help it if other people like you see the world through intolerant-coloured glasses.

Stereotyping would be saying Pacific Mall store owners don't want adma's whitey in their store because whitey = The Man = threat to their counterfeit goods operations.

 

[wonderboy416]

I do recall your thread as to why you were moving to Seoul. It doesn't seem much different from a lot of other young Western males I saw there, let's just leave it at that....

Ahhh lets just paint me over with a nice broad stroke of the 'ol generalization brush... yes all foreigners who come to Seoul are the same. Free spirited 20 somethings either not yet ready for a real job or are burning out after landing a real job making a quick getaway for some easy money and lots of beautiful girls more than willing to take advantage of them (hmm... sounds pretty good actually!). Yes we are all the same, I'm really just on auto-pilot, it's set to quarter life crisis.

I wasn't boasting the success of the asian countries, I was merely trying to say that they have established something that's not even on Dubai's radar... sustainability and *drum roll* - an actual appreciation of human rights (compare the countries mentioned to their neighbours!).

Also, the Chinese community particularly in that area has enough population to be able to close ourselves off without much hit economically. I have a relative who owns a restaurant and never really has any non-Chinese customers and doesn't want them either. It doesn't matter because the amount of Chinese potential customers is enough to pay his rent. If a non-Chinese guy walks in he'll get a stare or two and awkward service.

I didn't need to take business at York to know that your relative is an absolute idiot for NOT wanting a paying customer, especially on the grounds of race. If I was a customer in his establishment and was being mistreated for being white I'd be more than happy to cuss him out in my broken mandarin or cantonese (maybe I'll just use the one he doesn't speak to mock him) and spit in his face and leave.. people like that have no place in a country like Canada, they stand against everything Canada stands for.
For the record I've had nothing but positive experiences in many of Toronto's Chinese owned establishments including Pacific mall. It has been the same while in Asia too... I'm quite sure your relative is an isolated case.

 

[jenny_zhang]

Ahhh lets just paint me over with a nice broad stroke of the 'ol generalization brush... yes all foreigners who come to Seoul are the same. Free spirited 20 somethings either not yet ready for a real job or are burning out after landing a real job making a quick getaway for some easy money and lots of beautiful girls more than willing to take advantage of them (hmm... sounds pretty good actually!). Yes we are all the same, I'm really just on auto-pilot, it's set to quarter life crisis.

Well, I can't see how that's a generalization if it's basically what you said in your initial "moving" post. I'm not judging.

I didn't need to take business at York to know that your relative is an absolute idiot for NOT wanting a paying customer

No, he's not. He's a culturally isolated person who came here and was surrounding by a large Chinese community and never felt the need to adapt or be learn to be comfortable outside that community.

He makes more than enough money serving just the Chinese community. I never said he rejects a customer based on race, just that it's very awkward for him and he'd rather not be doing it.

For the record I've had nothing but positive experiences in many of Toronto's Chinese owned establishments including Pacific mall.

As I'm sure is the case for many non-Chinese, yet this exists on a large scale which is invisible to the outside communities who never come in contact with it. But is it their fault? Cultural isolation is encouraged/natural result of the government policy. It's only going to get worse but at this moment most people, like you, are blind to it and don't see it as a problem.

I was merely trying to say that they have established something that's not even on Dubai's radar... sustainability and *drum roll* - an actual appreciation of human rights

Really? And how do you define human rights? The woman in the initial article complains about her treatment in Dubai, I've had much worse to me, other Chinese expatriates, as well as other foreigners from non-Western (and some from them) countries while living in Korea. How about in Singapore where minorities are quietly marginalized while making sure it's never visible enough to be criticized? And any attempts at real democracy are also cleverly shot down without seeming as such.

Or is human rights measured only by how well blue-eyed Western guys are treated in everyday life? That's convenient.

 

[billy corgan]

As I'm sure is the case for many non-Chinese, yet this exists on a large scale which is invisible to the outside communities who never come in contact with it. But is it their fault? Cultural isolation is encouraged/natural result of the government policy. It's only going to get worse but at this moment most people, like you, are blind to it and don't see it as a problem.

Cultural isolation is not promoted by any level of government. It is a choice some people make usually because of religious or racial reasons.
Jenny not only is your relative an idiot (business wise) for limiting his customer base but by being uncomfortable by the presence of a non-Chinese person in his restaurant he/she is racist.

 

[Whoaccio]

Ok. This thread is stupid and filled with pointless racial banter that doesn't serve any real good.

 

[jenny_zhang]

Cultural isolation is not promoted by any level of government. It is a choice some people make usually because of religious or racial reasons.
Jenny not only is your relative an idiot (business wise) for limiting his customer base but by being uncomfortable by the presence of a non-Chinese person in his restaurant he/she is racist.

When the government promotes official multiculturalism, why is it surprising that this leads to cultural fragmentation and isolation among the population? Immigrants see encouragement to keep their own languages and culture first and foremost, have plenty of services available in their own language, so why should a level of cultural isolation be surprising among a significant part of the community?

 

[Whoaccio]

When the government promotes official multiculturalism, why is it surprising that this leads to cultural fragmentation and isolation among the population? Immigrants see encouragement to keep their own languages and culture first and foremost, have plenty of services available in their own language, so why should a level of cultural isolation be surprising among a significant part of the community?

Umm... the government doesn't promote multi culturalism. It is a made up policy term that Liberals just made in order to win ethnic votes. The only point is that it isn't supposed to promote anything. So, unlike how things used to be, ethnic group x or y doesn't get sent to residential schools to force them to adopt a particular culture or confined to ghettos. (There is also no such thing as the 'US melting pot,' it doesn't exist.)

As to cultural isolation, it is surprising because it is stupid and hence why most immigrants don't do it (and indeed, the proportion of which is declining). Anybody that limits their market place so drastically because of simple laziness dies poor or dependent on someone else less lazy.

 

[Archivist]

I'll return to one of Keitz more unimaginable comments:

On a day-to-day basis, I doubt anyone would notice a difference in personal freedoms between Toronto and any of the 7 emirates.

A country where 85% of residents are not, and cannot be, citizens, has no freedoms. I assume what you mean by the weasel words "on a day-to-day basis" is that if you are meeting a friend, or going for a walk, or shopping, or any other activity that didn't actually require rights or citizenship, then you might not notice the difference. It would only be when you required the advantages of citizenship that you noticed its absence. I find your defence of Dubai shocking and disingenious, yes, it is better and more tolerant than other Arab societies, but ranks far below most of the world, including, say, all the Americas, Europe and Asia.

By the way, how is gay life in Dubai? I don't expect it to be blessing gay marriage, but nor will I stand by while ridiculous claims are made for it's tolerance.

Besides that, it's the most poorly planned collection of nothing I've seen in my entire life. An expressway for it's main commercial street? With one pedestrian underpass? People parking their cars and walking on sidewalkless dirt roads to get to their shiny office towers? One strip of tall buildings completely surrounded by surface parking and parking garages. Pity the poor souls sitting in the patios along Sheik Zayed Road, hammered by noise and fumes from the expressway. A planning error that makes Detroit look normal. I find nothing to admire there, frankly, Amman's rather impoverished but humane and lively streetscape, with abundant opportunities for interaction with people, struck me as just about infinitely superior to Dubai in any way that you could imagine, unless all you care about is tall buildings with wing-wangs glued to the top of them.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

can't waste concrete on sidewalks. they need that for skyscrapers. besides, walking is for chumps. don't want to encourage it.


look on the bright side, if it ever snows, they don't have to sand the sidewalks.

 

[simply Dan]

Well said, Archivist.

 

[nfitz]

Well said, Archivist.

Seconded!

 

[digi]

He makes more than enough money serving just the Chinese community. I never said he rejects a customer based on race, just that it's very awkward for him and he'd rather not be doing it.

Wow, so it's true....they are overwhelimingly racist...and jenny's defending it.

 

[adma]

Besides that, it's the most poorly planned collection of nothing I've seen in my entire life. An expressway for it's main commercial street? With one pedestrian underpass? People parking their cars and walking on sidewalkless dirt roads to get to their shiny office towers? One strip of tall buildings completely surrounded by surface parking and parking garages. Pity the poor souls sitting in the patios along Sheik Zayed Road, hammered by noise and fumes from the expressway. A planning error that makes Detroit look normal.

Or Brasilia, for that matter.

 

[JasonParis]

Archivist can easily give us his Brasilia opinions too!