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Downtown Yonge

"I would much rather see local independent retailers meeting our demand for things like coffee, burgers, and sandwiches rather than multi-national corporations. This would lead to better quality jobs, a stronger more resilient local economy, and less of our pocket money heading overseas unnecessarily."

Totally agree and makes the street much more interesting.
 
RC8 said:
I would much rather see local independent retailers meeting our demand for things like coffee, burgers, and sandwiches rather than multi-national corporations. This would lead to better quality jobs, a stronger more resilient local economy, and less of our pocket money heading overseas unnecessarily.
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I agree with you. However, local business didn't measure up to provide competitive products, and it is their own fault, not Starbucks'. If Coffee zone's coffee is aweful and charges the same as Starbucks, why would you blame Starbucks to taking its space? Fact is, consumers want to shop at Starbucks, not Coffee Zone.

Hating big chains for their success is irrational. All business wants to be big and when they do, they "displace" smaller ones. Those "small and independent" retailers would want to be as big as Starbucks too, if you ask their owners. They just were not able to. It is not an evil versus innocent game where smaller business is the victime.

Nobody pushed anybody. It is a fair market. Coffee Zone could pay the rent the landlord is asking, and they didn't. It is like losing a bidding war in house hunting, you can't blame the winner for having more money.

I like better business too, but the fact Coffee Zone can't afford market rent for the location already suggests they are not better business.

While I was in NYC, there is this small burger place at Madison Square called "Shake Shack" which is wildly popular. You usually have to line up for over 30 minutes for a burger anytime of the day. They thrived despite being smaller (a total of 17 stores) and more expensive than McDonald's which is everywhere. They are successful because they offer products big companies fail to and consumers love it. This is what I call better business.

Just being small and independent doesn't mean it is good. more often than not, they are worse than big chains. I find many here for some reason naively believe small business = good, chains = evil. The world is not that simple. Most small retailers don't actually offer distinguishable products but charge higher price. Should we support them just because they are not chains? There is a small store down my building which essentially sells exactly the same thing as Metro and Sobey's, just at 20% price premium. They have no competitive advantage to speak of other than being close to me. I would not be sad to see them gone if that happens.

Walmarts, Starbucks' advantage are their size. Don't hate them for it. Smaller business should create their own advantage before being able to compete with the big guys. You can't complain that others are able to offer products are lower prices and you can't.
 
Coffee Zone beverages were actually top notch. THey really blew Starbucks out of the water in that regard. But, as others have alluded to, it is hard for a small retailer producing a quality product to compete with a multinational corporation and their economies of scale advantage, even if the latter's product is inferior.
 
Thernan said:
But, as others have alluded to, it is hard for a small retailer producing a quality product to compete with a multinational corporation and their economies of scale advantage, even if the latter's product is inferior.
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it still means their products are not good enough.
APPLE was a much smaller company before Iphone than other higtech companies right? If you can't be innovative to produce an Iphone, then don't complain about the big players. Consumers don't buy your products because they are not good enough, period.
 
That is a very naive way of thinking. We are merely pointing out that powerful monopolies unnecessarily hurt consumer choice, reduce market resilience and dynamism, produce low quality jobs, and remove capital from local economies - something which Adam Smith repeats time and time again in The Wealth of Nations.

Ironically your reasoning applies to Tim Horton's, which relies on competitive pricing and convenience, but not to starbucks, which is overwhelmingly a product of marketing.
 
bleu said:
it still means their products are not good enough.
APPLE was a much smaller company before Iphone than other higtech companies right? If you can't be innovative to produce an Iphone, then don't complain about the big players. Consumers don't buy your products because they are not good enough, period.
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Wrong. It means their products are cheaper and mass branded, drowning out the little guy. A small coffee shop could be offering up the best coffee known to man and they'd still get bulldozed by the mass chains eventually.
 
bleu said:
I'd like to repeat again that small retail isn't necessarily more interesting and exciting. Yonge st between Gerrard and Bloor is an example. Most stores sell generic or tacky products/food. I won't consider them to be better than the Bay or Macy's at all.
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Exactly. I've been saying for a long time that instead of arguing for ridiculous height restrictions and immigrant rights, the city should be advocating the need for a complete revamp of Yonge St. Very very little on Yonge between College and Bloor should be left as is, whether through full preservation or tacky facadectomy (or lawn placement, as is the case in Five). In fact, developers should be encouraged to completely demolish anything below 4s, unless a serious case can be made for its continued existence.

This is my list of suggestions:
- Minimum 2s retail in nearly every new building fronting Yonge
- First floor *must* have a minimum of double the average floor height in the building
- No banks fronting Yonge on the first floor!

*Disclaimer: This comment constitutes an opinion. No need for threats.
 
Mike in TO said:
Work is still ongoing, but the city is in the process of developing a planning framework for Yonge Street from College/Carlton up to Bloor.

North Downtown Yonge Street Planning Framework:
http://www.toronto.ca/planning/northyongeplanningframework.htm
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This once again proves how much of a joke city staff have become. They literally have no vision whatsoever. Just reading that summary/brief on the link you provided makes me question the rationale behind this framework. Is it really to improve Yonge St in the context of it being one of the city's main streets (that city, being the largest in the country, and now 4th largest on the continent)? Nope, it seems they're more interested in protecting their patches of sunlight, and making sure that people can safely view a symmetric skyline from Etobicoke (since as you all know by now, having a lopsided skyline is absolutely dangerous to ones health and well being).
 
DtTO said:
This once again proves how much of a joke city staff have become. They literally have no vision whatsoever. Just reading that summary/brief on the link you provided makes me question the rationale behind this framework. Is it really to improve Yonge St in the context of it being one of the city's main streets (that city, being the largest in the country, and now 4th largest on the continent)? Nope, it seems they're more interested in protecting their patches of sunlight, and making sure that people can safely view a symmetric skyline from Etobicoke (since as you all know by now, having a lopsided skyline is absolutely dangerous to ones health and well being).
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I can never figure out if your here to bait people or if your truly serious. I'm not taking the bait today, besides, I've already debated the merits of downtown Yonge Street to death.
 
dt_toronto_geek said:
I can never figure out if your here to bait people or if your truly serious. I'm not taking the bait today, besides, I've already debated the merits of downtown Yonge Street to death.
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How am I baiting people? I'm stating my opinion, which many others happen to share. What part of what I said do you feel is baiting? Seriously, I'm curious.

P.S. Did you read the linked document? Do you honestly think that it is visionary enough for a street as important to the city's reputation as Yonge is?
 
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DtTO said:
How am I baiting people? I'm stating my opinion, which many others happen to share. What part of what I said do you feel is baiting? Seriously, I'm curious.

P.S. Did you read the linked document? Do you honestly think that it is visionary enough for a street as important to the city's reputation as Yonge is?
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The North Downtown Yonge Street Planning Framework review is still ongoing, therefore, the vision for Yonge from College to Bloor is still evolving. Matters such as the appropriate land uses, building heights, built form, urban design principles, pedestrian connections, and accommodation for various modes of transportation, amongst many other elements that make up this area, are still being considered. The lack of an existing local area plan (secondary plan) and recent development pressures, evident by the number of tall buildings being proposed, are part of the rationale for developing the Planning Framework. Staff are still receiving community input, so if you feel that the Planning Framework should include some of your opinions/suggestions, then contact the planners involved (listed in Mike in TO's post). If you call then you could even ask what are some of the concerns/suggestions that they've been hearing? The shape of the skyline would be very low on the list of concerns, whereas shadowing is a legitimate concern. When the sun is out, people like to bask in it. Why do you think the beach is busier on sunny days than cloudy days? The same applies to city streets, with Yonge being the most trafficked street for pedestrians in the City.
 
DtTO:

P.S. Did you read the linked document? Do you honestly think that it is visionary enough for a street as important to the city's reputation as Yonge is?
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Actually, since when does height equate to vision? How would adding tall but architecturally indistinct (if not downright architecturally bankrupt) buildings while removing the existing built heritage be "visionary" and speak to the historical importance of the street (as opposed to an important condo, perhaps)? How does a vision of conserving and restoring that built heritage and creating a pedestrian oriented realm in an otherwise rapidly densifying area be any less visionary, any less special, any less forward thinking? I don't know about you, but my vision for the street is more than some third-rate architect coming up with a third-rate retail podium with third-rate workmanship hosting third-rate retail outlets with third-rate signage. And yes, instead of a few storefronts worth of it, we have an three floors of an entire corner of that. Congrats.

AoD
 
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More importantly still, it's a health concern. Did you know that the majority of Canadians are vitamin-D deficient? This is to a great extent a direct result of not taking in enough sun.

Access to open sky views, sun light, and trees have also been shown to lead to psychological well-being (rather unsurprisingly).
 
DtTO said:
How am I baiting people? I'm stating my opinion, which many others happen to share. What part of what I said do you feel is baiting? Seriously, I'm curious.

P.S. Did you read the linked document? Do you honestly think that it is visionary enough for a street as important to the city's reputation as Yonge is?
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OK, you say your serious so I'll give you that. Many of your comments are so off the hook (IMO) and sometimes inflammatory that I question whether your being serious or not. So I don't agree with your point of view on some matters, and you don't agree with mine and that's cool. So I respect your opinions, perhaps we'll debates issues other than Yonge Street downtown because I'm not going there again, at least not until the report moves closer to Council.
I have not read the latest Yonge Street Planning Framework, I've read several earlier versions so I'll wait for the final report that goes to Council. Based on the reports I've read in the past they are quite similar so I expect this one will be too.
 
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