Downtown Rapid Transit Expansion Study

[Palma]

York Region is funding that extension, and Vaughan and Markham are both part of York Region.

It does not matter they are both part of York region. Subway is not going east towards Markham is it?

 

[Palma]

I never said would support it. I said I'm surprised that York Region hadn't pushed it.

I'm surprised that Ford hasn't tried to eliminate the Dundas streetcar. Doesn't mean I'd support it.

I think there would be a lot of people against eliminating the Dundas streetcar

 

[Zoltan]

I was looking at options for using the rail lines through Union Station more intensely.

One thing I'm wondering is whether all freight has ceased using the Kingston Sub between Union Station and Pickering Junction now that Metrolinx own it, or do they still have to accomodate freight traffic - and if so, how much. Does anyone know better than me on this?

It comes to mind because it could be useful for various routings to relieve Bloor East, but if there's significant amount of freights, we'd be talking upgrading it to at least four tracks on any part of the route that's used.

 

[CDL.TO]

So extending the Danforth line to Markham, 20+ stops is OK, but extending Bloor line to MCC, ~ 10 stops, is not?

Please point out who has said that.

 

[GenerationW]

It does not matter they are both part of York region. Subway is not going east towards Markham is it?

It will be when Yonge gets extended north of Steeles.

As for another subway (Bloor-Danforth, or a DRL), not for a very long time.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Or do they even have to. Those distances are better covered by commuter rail with a convenient subway connection for short range rapid transit beyond that.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Or do they even have to. Those distances are better covered by commuter rail with a convenient subway connection for short range rapid transit beyond that.

The subway connection at Bloor (GO) and Dundas West (TTC) is not very convenient. Ditto for the Main (TTC) and Danforth (GO). In fact, it seems they don't know each other exist at those points.

 

[MisterF]

The subway connection at Bloor (GO) and Dundas West (TTC) is not very convenient. Ditto for the Main (TTC) and Danforth (GO). In fact, it seems they don't know each other exist at those points.

It's far easier and cheaper to fix those problems and upgrade the GO lines than to build whole new subway lines to serve the same places. We should be taking advantage of the infrastructure we already have and build new lines where the infrastructure isn't already there.

 

[liamdevlin02]

I was looking at options for using the rail lines through Union Station more intensely.

One thing I'm wondering is whether all freight has ceased using the Kingston Sub between Union Station and Pickering Junction now that Metrolinx own it, or do they still have to accomodate freight traffic - and if so, how much. Does anyone know better than me on this?

It comes to mind because it could be useful for various routings to relieve Bloor East, but if there's significant amount of freights, we'd be talking upgrading it to at least four tracks on any part of the route that's used.

There is very limited freight traffic. Some jobs run from Oshawa yard into the city, some jobs work the industries in west Pickering/east Scarborough.

 

[gweed123]

It's far easier and cheaper to fix those problems and upgrade the GO lines than to build whole new subway lines to serve the same places. We should be taking advantage of the infrastructure we already have and build new lines where the infrastructure isn't already there.

Bingo. Subway-like frequencies and capacity. LRT-like per km cost. If properly explained, I think that a GO REX system could be something that both sides of the subway/LRT debate could get behind.

 

[BurlOak]

Let's say the DRL line goes up to Eglinton / Don Mills. From there, one branch continues up Don Mills towards Seneca College and Steeles. The other branch goes under the CP line up to Ellesmere, then under Ellesmere to Brimley, and then to STC. That would create a one-seat ride from STC to downtown.

Currently, STC to downtown is a two transfer ride.

I think Scarborough would be happy with a one transfer ride, which could be achieved with much less cost with an through routed SRT and elevated Eglinton LRT through Scarborough to the DRL at Don Mills/Eglinton.

 

[nfitz]

Currently, STC to downtown is a two transfer ride.

It depends where your going downtown though. And it always will. If your destination is near Union, it's only a single transfer at Kenndy to the GO. And if it's near UT (which is one of the big downtown nodes) it's a single transfer at Kennedy to the Bloor-Danforth.

 

[BurlOak]

The busiest point on the Yonge line is Bloor to Wellesley. Any pphpd capacity restriction is felt there first. A DRL will be designed very specifically to reduce ridership at that location.

It is ceratinly possible that ridership elsewhere will increase to fill in the gap which may increase total passenger km of the line; but the peak point should still have lower ridership than it would otherwise.

Although the peak point may be south of Bloor, I worry that just north of Bloor is close to packed as well - especially if we add in some Eglinton LRT riders as well.

The DRL (especially if going to Union) will only skim off a small fraction of the riders from the B-D line, and almost no riders from the Yonge line. At best, this may reduce the dwell time for the Yonge train at Bloor by a few seconds, but I do not think it will increase the capacity very much. If the DRL goes closer to King (or maybe even Queen), it would take more riders, but still the capacity of the Yonge line would not increase by much.

We need to take actual riders from the Yonge line north of Bloor. This, of course, can be accomplished by taking the DRL up to Eglinton. It may be difficult to rebuild Pape station to handle the full loads as a major interchange station, so it may be better to encourage riders to take Eglinton LRT to Don Mills and then south on the DRL. Since this is all new construction, it would be easier than retrofitting Pape. With this Eglinton to Don Mills option open, demand on transfers at Pape would be lower.

The big problem is that the DRL cannot be built in one shot from downtown to Eglinton. The Pape to Eglinton would have to be the second phase - and the TTC has very little credibility when it comes to phase 2. Sheppard subway phase 2 from Don Mills to STC was not built. Eglinton subway was cancelled but when funding became available it switched to LRT and not as high priority as before. It also appears that phase 2 of TC will be cancelled and this DRL persued. It will be hard to get acceptance from all of Toronto since no-one has confidence that whatever is proposed for DRL will actually be completed.

 

[rbt]

Although the peak point may be south of Bloor, I worry that just north of Bloor is close to packed as well - especially if we add in some Eglinton LRT riders as well.

This is probable but of less concern.

If you decrease the number of passengers transferring at Bloor, you can increase train frequencies across the entirity of the Yonge line after Yonge extension is complete as Finch is another choke point.

Current choke points are:
#1: Dwell time at Bloor. Cause is the very large number of passengers transferring. Barracade efforts help achieve current ~2 minute frequencies but probably will not be enough to achieve 90 second frequencies.

DRL helps by removing a large number of people entering/exiting the train.

#2: Turnback at finch due to cross-over switches. Yonge extension is designed to fix this.

#3: Turnback at Downsview due to cross-over switches. Spadina extension is designed to fix this.

#4: Signal system (fix in progress).

#5: Dwell time at King station. I'm not aware of anything underway to resolve this..


If you build the DRL and Yonge extension then you get to run trains across the entire line as fast as King station will allow which is much more capacity than exists today.

So, even if the highest ridership is between Eglinton and St. Clair, the DRL helps by eliminating Bloor as the primary choke point.

 

[nfitz]

King is (last time I looked) second.

I think a lot could be accomplished at King, with simply expanding the platform in the same manner as they did a few years ago at Bloor. Can you imagine how much worse King would get if the DRL intersects here somehow? Yet another exit wouldn't hurt either (perhaps two sets, both at the extreme north and south of the platform). Not sure how feasible any of that is.