Downtown Rapid Transit Expansion Study

[BurlOak]

This is probable but of less concern.

If you decrease the number of passengers transferring at Bloor, you can increase train frequencies across the entirity of the Yonge line after Yonge extension is complete as Finch is another choke point.

Current choke points are:
#1: Dwell time at Bloor. Cause is the very large number of passengers transferring. Barracade efforts help achieve current ~2 minute frequencies but probably will not be enough to achieve 90 second frequencies.

DRL helps by removing a large number of people entering/exiting the train.

#2: Turnback at finch due to cross-over switches. Yonge extension is designed to fix this.

#3: Turnback at Downsview due to cross-over switches. Spadina extension is designed to fix this.

#4: Signal system (fix in progress).

#5: Dwell time at King station. I'm not aware of anything underway to resolve this..


If you build the DRL and Yonge extension then you get to run trains across the entire line as fast as King station will allow which is much more capacity than exists today.

So, even if the highest ridership is between Eglinton and St. Clair, the DRL helps by eliminating Bloor as the primary choke point.

The question is how many people will transfer to the DRL. On the B-D line, some from the West will transfer to the Yonge line. Some from the East will continue to use Yonge since the DRL is not at a convenient location. The same number of people will still leave Yonge to transfer to Bloor. How much can the dwell time be realistically be reduced? I do not know what the numbers are, but if the current dwell time is 40 seconds, could it be reduced to 30 - maybe 25? This is a 10 or 15 second savings on a +/- 100 second headway - maybe a 10% improvement. Still not a huge number. There is probably an increase in riders on Yonge due to the Eglinton LRT (and to a much lessor extent the SELRT). I would say that the problem on the Yonge line would still be severe - maybe not critcial. Passengers must be taken off the Yonge line - which can be accomplished with a DRL going to Eglinton or even farther north, or by GO improvements. Short of 3 platforms and all door boarding, I imagine the Yonge-Bloor will always be the choke point.

Also, I think the extra capacity gained by "fixing" the Finch turn-back will more than be offset by the additional passengers coming in from Richmond Hill.

 

[gweed123]

? I was using a blackberry. I can access this forum easily enough from a BB, but searching for large PDF documents and viewing them doesn't work ... not easily at least. Yes, I need a new blackberry ...

Not sure the issue here. The construction of the DRL providing huge relief on the Yonge line is something people have been talking about for a quarter-century. The reports in question are what triggered this whole DRL revival back in 2008/2009. And we discussed the contents of these reports here in early 2009, which ultimately lead to this thread being created. It's not like I'm sitting on any secrets here.

Gweed, was there something else you were looking for?

Nope, I was just curious what the ratio was between the two. When the line's metrics (train capacity, minimum headways, etc) stay constant, it's easy enough just to compare current ridership vs future ridership. But when those metrics are changing over time, then comparing just ridership becomes less valid. At that point, you need to compare the ridership vs capacity ratios.

I guess to sum it up: With the DRL, we can expect to see a significant decrease in both absolute ridership and in the ridership vs capacity ratio. Without the DRL, ridership is going to increase substantially, and projected ridership may very well exceed capacity, even with those increases in the metrics.

 

[Rainforest]

Passengers must be taken off the Yonge line - which can be accomplished with a DRL going to Eglinton or even farther north, or by GO improvements. Short of 3 platforms and all door boarding, I imagine the Yonge-Bloor will always be the choke point.

That's correct; but do not forget that the downtown section of DRL is the most challenging in terms of costs. If we can fund it from Downtown to Danforth, then it will be easier to get funding from Danforth to Eglinton.

Also, I think the extra capacity gained by "fixing" the Finch turn-back will more than be offset by the additional passengers coming in from Richmond Hill.

For sure I hope that at least Phase I of DRL starts operating before the Richmond Hill extension.

 

[Paleo]

I just noticed in the report that it expects in 20 years that over one-third of all AM peak traffic on the Yonge line will originate at RHC station which seems... I don't know, inflated?

 

[calimehtar]

Does it seem wrong to anyone else that they would build the eastern leg of the DRL with no plans for a western leg when, from what I've seen living and commuting on the West end, King and Queen streetcars, and the Dufferin Bus are all basically over capacity for the routes they run on during rush hour every single day. All three lines are also competing with automobile traffic which will certainly increase if more people get fed up with trying to squeeze onto these vehicles and look for alternatives.

Granted there's a fair amount of condo development on the east side of downtown, but I've seen no evidence that there is less on the west side. In fact I'd bet there's more. And it's well-know that there are no good sites for development on the Danforth. Meanwhile there are many decent-sized condo projects in Liberty Village, Etobicoke by the lake, around Queen and Dufferin, around Bloor and Lansdowne, and north of there in the Junction Triangle.

I would guess that the ridership potential of a western DRL is higher than the eastern one, maybe much higher.

 

[rbt]

Also, I think the extra capacity gained by "fixing" the Finch turn-back will more than be offset by the additional passengers coming in from Richmond Hill.

Not very likely in the short-term. Yonge extension will not add 10,000 peak-hour passengers south of Bloor on opening day or very soon after that, especially if you believe York Regions numbers.

The capacity difference is a theoretical 35% increase (90 second frequencies down from ~140 second frequencies). Need to take care of Bloor, Finch, Downsview, and possibly King to obtain it though.

Moscow runs 90 second frequencies like clockwork with far more passengers. It is an achievable target.

 

[leopetr]

I just noticed in the report that it expects in 20 years that over one-third of all AM peak traffic on the Yonge line will originate at RHC station which seems... I don't know, inflated?

If the train fills up soon after leaving RHC, then of course it will account for a huge chunk of the traffic. People south of it won't be able to get on.

Edit: Reasons why this ridership might not materialize:
- Spadina subway extension (opens 2016)
- Richmond Hill GO all day service (not immediately likely)
- Stouffville GO all day service (not immediately likely)

 

[Rainforest]

Does it seem wrong to anyone else that they would build the eastern leg of the DRL with no plans for a western leg when, from what I've seen living and commuting on the West end, King and Queen streetcars, and the Dufferin Bus are all basically over capacity for the routes they run on during rush hour every single day. All three lines are also competing with automobile traffic which will certainly increase if more people get fed up with trying to squeeze onto these vehicles and look for alternatives.

Granted there's a fair amount of condo development on the east side of downtown, but I've seen no evidence that there is less on the west side. In fact I'd bet there's more. And it's well-know that there are no good sites for development on the Danforth. Meanwhile there are many decent-sized condo projects in Liberty Village, Etobicoke by the lake, around Queen and Dufferin, around Bloor and Lansdowne, and north of there in the Junction Triangle.

I would guess that the ridership potential of a western DRL is higher than the eastern one, maybe much higher.

No. The local boarding count may indeed be higher for DRL West. But a properly built DRL East will get a huge amount of transfer traffic (from BD subway, and from numerous local routes east of Yonge / north of Bloor).

 

[unimaginative2]

Not very likely in the short-term. Yonge extension will not add 10,000 peak-hour passengers south of Bloor on opening day or very soon after that, especially if you believe York Regions numbers.

The capacity difference is a theoretical 35% increase (90 second frequencies down from ~140 second frequencies). Need to take care of Bloor, Finch, Downsview, and possibly King to obtain it though.

Moscow runs 90 second frequencies like clockwork with far more passengers. It is an achievable target.

90 second frequencies on a busy system are possible, but very challenging. It makes sense in a place like Moscow or Paris where adding additional routes is quite challenging, but in a city like Toronto it would be much more sensible at this point to focus on adding additional lines that would both relieve existing routes and improve service in areas without rapid transit.

I've been to Moscow and seen the 90 second frequencies. It's almost impossible to believe: you literally see the headlights of the next train approaching as the last train is leaving the station. It's amazing that they're able to do it, and I'm not sure exactly how they do it. Ex-communist systems have a timer in the station at the front of the train that counts up from when the last train departed. They do leave consistently after 90 seconds or sometimes even sooner. That means that the trains are pulling into stations often well under a minute after the last one left. Obviously their regulations are geared to permit it and they also make sure to minimize dwell times in stations. There are no warning chimes and the doors slam shut hard and fast. If you've got something trapped in the door, too bad for you. Of course it's much easier to persuade people not to rush the doors and instead to wait for the next train when the next train is only a few seconds away.

 

[someMidTowner]

Just saw on CP24 that the TTC is in now favour of a DRL: werent they already?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Andy Byford has been saying that's the priority for awhile now - but that really doesn't mean much unless someone tackle the issue politically and come up with the $$.

AoD

 

[rbt]

Andy Byford has been saying that's the priority for awhile now - but that really doesn't mean much unless someone tackle the issue politically and come up with the $$.

I have slightly more faith that Council will find funds than I did in Ford finding funds. Not a whole lot more though.

Looking forward to the financing report this fall.

 

[Dan416]

Too bad we need it yesterday but won't get it until the 2020s at the earliest.

 

[M II A II R II K]

They'll start the EA in the 2020s, the actual digging in the 2030s, and it'll open in the 2040s, and finish in the 2070s.

 

[nfitz]

They'll start the EA in the 2020s, the actual digging in the 2030s, and it'll open in the 2040s, and finish in the 2070s.

In your dreams! 2100 at least!