"Downtown Core Line" - Possible Alignments?

[scarberiankhatru]

I doubt there would be many cost savings to having an underground LRT over a subway line when you need to run massive trains which need massive 300-400 foot stations (stations being the biggest cost of any underground line).

There aren't many cost savings, which is why if a route is to be built underground, there's automatically incentive to built it as a subway line and get more out of the investment.

 

[gweed123]

I was basing that on an estimate of 1,000 per train at 2.5 minute frequencies. I did some digging and that might have been a bit low as the specs say that the trains can theoretically hold 1,250 people which yields 30,000.

As for the TTC's estimates, I think they are unrealistically optimistic. The new trains are supposed to have 10% more capacity which ups it to 33,000 per hour at the same frequency. The new signaling won't fix the bottlenecks at the downtown stations which will ultimately limit how much service (and capacity) that you can safely run.

30,000 peak hour should be adequate in handing the expected capacity of the DRL (including transfers from streetcar routes and local traffic). And I agree that the projections for capacity are a bit optimistic, but the projections of usage are pretty accurate, especially if the Yonge extension to Richmond Hill is completed.

I also must point out that very little will need to be done to Queen Station if the LRT DRL is put into place along Queen, as Queen Station already has a 2nd streetcar platform hollowed out underneath the current subway platform. Osgoode station is a different story through.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Having the Jane LRL follow Dundas Street down to the Dundas West Station and then continue on as the Downtown Relief Line would be of benefit and provide an option to get downtown from the west. Whether it be along the railway or in a tunnel under Dundas Street would depend on whether or not there would be enough space on the railway right-of-way.
The southern part of Jane could then be serviced by an extension of the 512 St. Clair (preferable underground).

 

[Darren B]

Queen may have the 'busiest streetcar route', but does it have the highest ridership per mile? You must take into account the large area it serves!

Does anyone know of any publications from the TTC listing ridership per route mile for each route?

I dont know if there is, but they do publicly say its the busiest route because they always use the Queen route when comparing a TTC route to the entire transit systems of any 905 suburb. If you or anyone else has any doubt then I'd recommend riding the 501 or any of its feeder lines (502, 503) or ride the 504 on King (which will mirror the DRL) anytime between 8am and 8pm. Alot of the pro Lakefront/Rail land crowd are seeing it from the anlge of subway ridersship more so then streetcar ridership. The DRL's primary reason is to relief the B&Y interchange and the seconday reason for the DRL is to serve the best need of the transit users in the city. A very dedicated and busy transit corridor exists along Queen, and its used literally 24/7. Lets not forget that this transit pattern is so busy that riders pay alot more to ride the Beach express bus that mirrors the Queen streetcar. It picks up riders from the core (Peter to Sherbourne) and then runs express and drops off people along Queen in the Beach (Coxwell to Neville Park)

 

[urbanfan89]

Can we cut all this "OMG LRT is 73h 1337!1!!!!!!1!11" crap, please?

Not even Steve Munro supports LRT for this downtown subway line. It is just not an appropriate technology.

 

[cacruden]

Exactly what Queen street needs. It's a bad idea to run a subway under a street like Queen with stops over a half km apart, when we can build LRT subways with stops that are 400m or less apart for much cheaper. That would complement Queen's vibrant nature much more. Why does it have to be HRT subway or bust?



In addition to transportation options, that would also spur some development of Queen outside the core.....

I will hurl if they decide on an LRT for DRL. I would much prefer 400m to 600m stops on the SUBWAY on the downtown portion of the DRL line. I believe Queen to King is 400m (Yonge line), probably Dundas to Queen is going to be 500m, while Bathurst to Spadina may be 600m. I find this aversion to walking a short distance to be quite weird.

 

[taal]

I dont know if there is, but they do publicly say its the busiest route because they always use the Queen route when comparing a TTC route to the entire transit systems of any 905 suburb. If you or anyone else has any doubt then I'd recommend riding the 501 or any of its feeder lines (502, 503) or ride the 504 on King (which will mirror the DRL) anytime between 8am and 8pm. Alot of the pro Lakefront/Rail land crowd are seeing it from the anlge of subway ridersship more so then streetcar ridership. The DRL's primary reason is to relief the B&Y interchange and the seconday reason for the DRL is to serve the best need of the transit users in the city. A very dedicated and busy transit corridor exists along Queen, and its used literally 24/7. Lets not forget that this transit pattern is so busy that riders pay alot more to ride the Beach express bus that mirrors the Queen streetcar. It picks up riders from the core (Peter to Sherbourne) and then runs express and drops off people along Queen in the Beach (Coxwell to Neville Park)

I did this calculation once before.

Queen has very low ppl per km compared to other lines and buses!
Then again it depends how concentrated different segments are but anyway.

Finch / Dufferin bus are between 2-3 thousand from what I recall. Queen is lower then that.

It was something in the high thousands, where as king was 4-5. Spadina was the highest by far followed by St.Clair, College ... Queen was way down on the list.

But that's because it's such a long line.

 

[Darren B]

I did this calculation once before.

Queen has very low ppl per km compared to other lines and buses!
Then again it depends how concentrated different segments are but anyway.

Well my advice is move away from the calculation and actually ride the Queen and/or King car for a week at different times of the day. I just rode the 504 home this late evening, and the car was packed to the rafters.

An urban legend goes that in the 1890s a city planner did a calculation that the streets of NYC would rise by meters (3rd floor window as per the story) by the 1930s with all the horse manure adding up in the street. The guy was wrong, because the car was just around the corner. The existing transit pattern along Queen is extremly more active then any existing corrdior along Lakeshore/Front, either the Ex streetcar or the 72 Pape from Union. The Queen corridor will only attract more riders if it grew to a subway under Queen from Pape to Roncesvilles. The existing feeder streetcar and bus routes will (502,503,504,72, etc ) that a lot riders use to transfer to the Queen car will feed even more passengers to a Queen subway

 

[kEiThZ]

I will hurl if they decide on an LRT for DRL. I would much prefer 400m to 600m stops on the SUBWAY on the downtown portion of the DRL line. I believe Queen to King is 400m (Yonge line), probably Dundas to Queen is going to be 500m, while Bathurst to Spadina may be 600m. I find this aversion to walking a short distance to be quite weird.

I meant for a Queen LRT to complement a King or Front/Wellington DRL....not for the DRL to be built using LRT.

Well my advice is move away from the calculation and actually ride the Queen and/or King car for a week at different times of the day. I just rode the 504 home this late evening, and the car was packed to the rafters.

Unfortunately, the province only doles out money if you have calculations to prove why you need that money. Asking for money without having evidence to back it up is like a grade school kid doing maths, showing the answer but not the work behind it. I should hope that our public servants don't conduct business in such a haphazard way. We need to develop metrics to evaluate and score each scenario and see which one comes out on top. Good on Taal and andomano for starting the discussion.

 

[Darren B]

Unfortunately, the province only doles out money if you have calculations to prove why you need that money. Asking for money without having evidence to back it up is like a grade school kid doing maths, showing the answer but not the work behind it. I should hope that our public servants don't conduct business in such a haphazard way. We need to develop metrics to evaluate and score each scenario and see which one comes out on top. Good on Taal and andomano for starting the discussion.

The province will do its assesments. And they'll have all the resources they need to do their studiy, that's for sure. But for the purposes of this conversation here, one should really move past calculations and ride the Queen corridor to see first hand the type of volume there is.

 

[cacruden]

I meant for a Queen LRT to complement a King or Front/Wellington DRL....not for the DRL to be built using LRT.

I don't think I have service going down Church street - it is too close to the subway - in the same way I would not expect us to need an LRT to complement anything. How about we just finish the subway on Adelaide St. with stations that are fairly close to Queen, then see what needs there are left after that. I'll bet the congestion clears up (transit-wise), car traffic will of course remain a problem because of all the cars coming into the downtown and spreading out.

 

[Disparishun]

Well my advice is move away from the calculation and actually ride the Queen and/or King car for a week at different times of the day. I just rode the 504 home this late evening, and the car was packed to the rafters.

I mean, Darren, there's a next step to your advice, which is to figure out why the calculation does not feel to you like it matches your experience; think about what kinds of assumptions are behind the calculation; and come up with a better calculation that takes into account the kinds of things you believe exist in the real world but are getting omitted. "Just try it" does not really make a strong policy argument.

 

[Darren B]

I mean, Darren, there's a next step to your advice, which is to figure out why the calculation does not feel to you like it matches your experience; think about what kinds of assumptions are behind the calculation; and come up with a better calculation that takes into account the kinds of things you believe exist in the real world but are getting omitted. "Just try it" does not really make a strong policy argument.

Yeah a combination of both is definatly needed; actual usage and studies to measure the exact current usage and map out where the ridership can increase.

 

[kEiThZ]

Yeah a combination of both is definatly needed; actual usage and studies to measure the exact current usage and map out where the ridership can increase.

I am fairly sure the TTC does time of day ridership stats for individual routes, whether they publish them or not.

 

[JasonParis]

...one should really move past calculations and ride the Queen corridor to see first hand the type of volume there is.

Why would you assume we haven't? I'm sure everyone in this discussion has been on the Queen car and witnessed first-hand the crush-loads and the unreliability of the service.