Double Decker Buses in Ontario - Safety?

[crs1026]

^The good thing about systemmatic accident investigations is they generate not just the immediate causes of the event, but they also look at the latent things that may either interact with, or aggravate, the damage.

An example here is the design of the shelters. I bet that nobody considered that the overhanging roof overhang was a perfect “can opener” at just the right height to slice open a DD bus and inflict damage on the upper level. Bus shelters are designed to look pretty and hold people, but are they analysed for how they will work if struck by a bus? Interestingly, there are crash standards for new buildings within x meters of a railway track, as there is always the possibility of a derailment. That same analysis probably hasn’t happened to set standards for busway design.

It’s too soon to know why this bus left the roadway, but I bet there will be recommendations about how to separate buses from pedestrians at stops, and whether there should be fixed barriers around structures. Get ready for some jersey barriers.

- Paul

 

[Admiral Beez]

Still safer than a motorcycle. Which is by far the most dangerous mode of transportation.

Very true. However statistically the vast majority of motorcycle crashes are due to operator error, with most being single vehicle incidents, and in cases with multiple vehicles, the motorcyclist is partially or entirely at fault more than half the time. So, operate your bike properly and odds are you’re ok. But you’re right, it’s a dangerous thing, though in city limits I feel safer on the motorcycle with ATGATT than on my bicycle.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Very true. However statistically the vast majority of motorcycle crashes are due to operator error, with most being single vehicle incidents, and in cases with multiple vehicles, the motorcyclist is partially or entirely at fault more than half the time. So, operate your bike properly and odds are you’re ok. But you’re right, it’s a dangerous thing, though in city limits I feel safer on the motorcycle with ATGATT than on my bicycle.

I suppose the reason why people are afraid more of plane/train/bus/ship incidents, assuming the root cause is operator error just like in the motorcycle car, is that you weren't the one in control.


It's also been studied that if say15 people die in 15 separate incidents, versus 5 people dying in one incident, the second case has a bigger psychological impact even though less people died

 

[ShonTron]

^The good thing about systemmatic accident investigations is they generate not just the immediate causes of the event, but they also look at the latent things that may either interact with, or aggravate, the damage.

An example here is the design of the shelters. I bet that nobody considered that the overhanging roof overhang was a perfect “can opener” at just the right height to slice open a DD bus and inflict damage on the upper level. Bus shelters are designed to look pretty and hold people, but are they analysed for how they will work if struck by a bus? Interestingly, there are crash standards for new buildings within x meters of a railway track, as there is always the possibility of a derailment. That same analysis probably hasn’t happened to set standards for busway design.

It’s too soon to know why this bus left the roadway, but I bet there will be recommendations about how to separate buses from pedestrians at stops, and whether there should be fixed barriers around structures. Get ready for some jersey barriers.

- Paul

What GO Transit did at the Union Station bus terminal is perfectly reasonable - thick bollards to keep the buses from jumping the curb and into waiting passengers (as what happened once there, though there were no injuries) yet keeping access to the buses easy and accessible.

 

[crs1026]

What GO Transit did at the Union Station bus terminal is perfectly reasonable - thick bollards to keep the buses from jumping the curb and into waiting passengers (as what happened once there, though there were no injuries) yet keeping access to the buses easy and accessible.

Imagine if that GO bus had been a double decker... same result as in Ottawa. There is the risk to pedestrians, and there is the risk to the bus itself from colliding with the structure. With double deckers, overhanging roofs are a hazard that is much more significant than with a single level bus.

Seems like transit is very blase about risks to passengers waiting at bus stops. One does hear every so often about an event where a car/truck has left the roadway and taken out a bus shelter. A bus, decelerating from speed into a bus bay, is an error probable situation. Even a careful driver will be caught by surprise eventually due to variability in vehicle condition, roadway condition etc. I wonder why every bus stop doesnt have a bollard or two in the design, especially at terminals where the number of potential victims is so high.

- Paul

 

[gweed123]

^The good thing about systemmatic accident investigations is they generate not just the immediate causes of the event, but they also look at the latent things that may either interact with, or aggravate, the damage.

An example here is the design of the shelters. I bet that nobody considered that the overhanging roof overhang was a perfect “can opener” at just the right height to slice open a DD bus and inflict damage on the upper level. Bus shelters are designed to look pretty and hold people, but are they analysed for how they will work if struck by a bus? Interestingly, there are crash standards for new buildings within x meters of a railway track, as there is always the possibility of a derailment. That same analysis probably hasn’t happened to set standards for busway design.

It’s too soon to know why this bus left the roadway, but I bet there will be recommendations about how to separate buses from pedestrians at stops, and whether there should be fixed barriers around structures. Get ready for some jersey barriers.

- Paul

With regards to the shelters: After Phase II is complete in 2023, off the top of my head I can only think of a few Transitway stations that will still have that original 'red domed roof' design, which is the Southeast Transitway. They're largely on the original sections of the Transitway, while the newer extensions into Barrhaven and Kanata (the two areas that won't be getting LRT in Phase II) used a newer design.

 

[drum118]

TSB to join investigation into fatal Ottawa bus crash

 

[W. K. Lis]

Not just double-decker buses.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

With regards to the shelters: After Phase II is complete in 2023, off the top of my head I can only think of a few Transitway stations that will still have that original 'red domed roof' design, which is the Southeast Transitway. They're largely on the original sections of the Transitway, while the newer extensions into Barrhaven and Kanata (the two areas that won't be getting LRT in Phase II) used a newer design.

But even in the SE transitway case, the shelters are much farther back from the curb. The older stations like Westboro have the "can opener" right by the curb, the idea was to keep people more sheltered from the elements. On the SE transitway built a decade later, they seemed to think it was a bad idea

 

[steveintoronto]

@drum118 's linked article above as per "TSB" which is an obvious inclusion, followed one of the related links for that article, and this gives me real cause for concern:

[...]
An OC Transpo bus driver who passed through Westboro station shortly before Friday's fatal crash says road conditions were ideal that day.

The driver, who has been driving with OC Transpo for 10 years, agreed to speak to CBC on the condition of confidentiality, saying he fears reprisal from his employer for speaking without permission.

"I was on the Transitway on Friday, and truthfully I was thinking to myself ... 'Wow, the roads couldn't be any better today,'" the driver said. "I went through Westboro station westbound [in the early afternoon] and the roads were completely clear."
[...]
Double-deckers 'handle really well' in snow
Heading into Westboro station, there's a centre median with some snow and ice buildup around it, the driver told CBC News in an interview Monday, but the road itself was clear.

"Before it happened I was just like, these are the kinds of days where I really like driving in the winter. It's cold, it's very clear, it's actually very easy to see if there's ice on the road, in my opinion," he said.

But if bright late-afternoon light was blasting through a dirty windshield, it could have significantly reduced visibility.

They actually handle really well in the snow, better than most of the other buses.- 10-year OC Transpo bus driver

"[In] this kind of weather, the salt and stuff can get stuck to the buses very easily as well. Any crud on the window, when you start shining bright light through it, it definitely makes it harder to see," he said.

The driver estimated he's driven double-deckers about 100 times, and described them as "a pretty safe vehicle."

"I think they actually handle really well in the snow, better than most of the other buses, to be truthful, just because of the sheer weight that's overtop of the axles," he explained.

"A lot of operators really love the double-deckers." [...]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/oc-transpo-bus-driver-fatal-crash-reaction-1.4978675

I have concerns if that is correct, other concerns if it's wrong. The biggest concern might be drivers with a false sense of security and pushing limits beyond what they should. Compared to the other buses in the OC Transpo fleet, the claim of the Alexander-Dennis DDs being superior might be the case. I've talked to a number of GO Transit drivers (slightly different model) who have split opinions.

I've never been on the Ottawa busways, but have been many times on Mississauga's and been concerned as to what would happen in a panic application of brakes when bypassing other stopped buses at stations. Anyone presuming the ABS will keep them going in a straight line is fanciful. It will help, it won't guarantee it, especially in the wet.

I suspect when fault is found, it will be the culmination of a number of shortcomings.

Addendum: Searching the reliability history of this model, I tripped across this. Normally I'd counsel that this could easily mislead, which it still could, this is over five years ago, and ostensibly any braking problems would have long ago been addressed (modulation would be my biggest concern, as per "front wheel hit curb" and the braking effort distribution remaining balanced or not at that moment, but I digress). What's troubling about the following is the *failure to answer direct and relevant questions* from the press. THIS more than anything begs the Transportation Safety Board being involved. They publish their findings.

No answers from city to questions about double-decker bus brakes
DAVID REEVELY, OTTAWA CITIZEN 09.27.2013
[...]
In their standard configuration, OC Transpo’s double-decker buses, Alexander Dennis Enviro500s, are about 10,000 pounds heavier than OC Transpo’s articulated buses. Both types of buses have three axles, meaning the brakes have to do more work to stop a double-decker bus once it’s up to speed. Some OC Transpo drivers have complained, anonymously, that they’ve had trouble with double-decker bus brakes — that the brakes simply don’t stop the vehicles as quickly as they should.
The double-deckers are new in Ottawa, the city having put 74 of them into service, mostly over the past year. They’ve had some early problems: A ventilation system that was poorly tuned to Ottawa winters led to condensation streaming down on riders on the upper deck; OC Transpo decided to stop running double-deckers along a stretch of Woodroffe Avenue in the winter after strong winds on flat, slippery ground blew two of them off the road; and it had to replace faulty gaskets that in certain conditions let exhaust fumes leak into the double-deckers’ cabins, sending one driver to hospital.
The Citizen has put questions about the brakes to the city repeatedly.
At a news conference just after the crash, the Citizen asked OC Transpo general manager John Manconi whether the brakes on double-decker buses require more maintenance attention than the brakes on other buses in his agency’s fleet.
“Because it’s an ongoing investigation, I’m not going to get into specifics about allegations that are out there,” he said. “What I will tell you is the double-deckers were purchased, they were inspected, they were deemed safe, they go through all the appropriate inspections, they’re on the road, and unless we hear word from any of the investigating authorities that they’re unsafe, we’re going to keep using them.”
The Citizen followed up by email on Monday, once the immediate crisis was over. While the first question was whether OC Transpo uses the standard brake configuration that the Alexander Dennis buses come with: disc brakes at the front, “S” cam brakes (drum brakes with air-brake chambers) on the two axles at the back.
Yes, responded city spokeswoman Nikki Eaton on Thursday: “There have been no changes to this configuration.”
The Citizen also repeated the question about whether the double-decker brakes need more maintenance than the brakes on other buses. Eaton ignored it entirely. “Let me know if you need anything else,” she concluded.
Asked a third time, by email, Eaton didn’t acknowledge the question.
dreevely@ottawacitizen.com

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/answer...about+double+decker+brakes/8969329/story.html

Very curious, I'll continue digging on that...

Meantime, regard the damage done to the bus in the latest accident. Those passengers were sitting ducks.

Take a close look at this:

PAT MCGRATH / OTTAWA CITIZEN

You know what I find incredibly astounding, and many of the railfans will notice this: The utter lack of superstructure protection for not just the upper deck, but the whole front end. The FRA would have absolute conniptions if this were a passenger rail vehicle submitted for a waiver. And rightly so.

Even just a simple rollover or rear end with a truck would crush the whole front section. The frailty of the design is apparent in pics of the accident I won't post or even link. Readers can find them.

This vehicle is devoid of having a simple "roll-cage" it seems. The bike rack on the front and the shoulder bars on the upper body corners are all there is *apparently* for safety.

And two passengers went flying out the front...OK, one immediately thinks "seatbelts could have stopped that". Perhaps...but attached to what? And would they have caused even more damage?

Megabus have already had a few bad ones like this. I'm going to try and search NYState's records...

Addendum: Running short of time, but have located this for others who wish to peruse:

Screenshot from 2019-01-16 18-48-03

http://apps.altoonabustest.psu.edu/buses/reports/134.pdf?1442415368

 

[steveintoronto]

There's a very real danger of digging incidents, as some of them could be very easily misleading, and some of what I'm finding I've yet to read, and therefore not mentioned, but this raises a number of questions, not least as to whether this GO bus incident was widely reported in the press outside of Ottawa or not:

CTV Ottawa
Published Tuesday, January 17, 2017 8:23AM EST
Last Updated Thursday, January 19, 2017 12:42AM ES
[...]
OC Transpo Assistant Manager, Troy Charter, says they don't yet know what caused the fire. Investigators will be examining the bus over the next few days to determine the cause.

He says they consider this an isolated incident, and have no reason to suspect a problem with the rest of the double-decker fleet.

But in the statement from OCTranspo Wednesday evening, confirmation of a small fire on board a double-decker bus in 2015. The bus was safely evacuated. In that case a Transmission wiring harness making contact with the exhaust of the engine Turbo charger was found to be the root cause.

Last February, the same model of double-decker bus caught fire in Kitchener. The GO transit bus was also mostly destroyed. The cause was found to be an air brake assembly that froze.

The Enviro-500 bus is made by Alexander Dennis. The company wouldn't comment on any connection between the fires.

The same vehicle, bus 8010, was involved in a collision in April of 2013. During bad weather it slid off the shoulder of Woodroffe Avenue and collided with a hydro pole.
[...]

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/oc-transp...e-had-prior-mechanical-difficulties-1.3244203

Further links, two pages worth, at the link above.

 

[lenaitch]

I agree that the TSB investigations and reports are incredibly in-depth and multi-faceted, and they make findings of risk rather than fault. If you are bored sometime, they are available on their website. In this case, it seems that they will only be providing assistance to Ottawa Police/Coroner.

Regarding that image of the design of bus in question, there appears to be no impact or crush area in the upper design. I can foresee an interim decision to remove the first row or two of seats.

 

[steveintoronto]

I can foresee an interim decision to remove the first row or two of seats.

I can't see anyway around it. It's brutal how they've provided a 'balcony seat' rail...which only further invites passengers up against the most dangerous place in the bus. Even a branch blown loose by the wind could cause immense damage, or something blowing off a truck in front. It's a gorgeous view, doubtless, but even a bar lattice with structural integrity over the window would offer much greater safety.

The point on whether the CTSB would be able to issue an independent report or not will probably become an issue in itself...

 

[drum118]

Given the track recorder of London DD buses that have seats in the front from day one as well the same as Europe, removing those seats are pure dumb. You will find me in that front row if I can get a seat there with no fear. I had no fear riding the DD in Europe, as well on GO. If Europe or the World have no issues with DD buses, why is NA having it???

I will re-frame from other comments until the report is issue and then only comment what I see or no of.

 

[steveintoronto]

This validates points others and myself have made."

OC Transpo warns double-decker drivers about overhang hazard, driver says

KELLY EGAN
Updated: January 14, 2019
[...]
“The first thing they taught us was stay the hell away from the structures at the stations because you’re not going to clear them,” said the operator, speaking on condition that he not be named, for fear of losing his job. “We’re actually taught to board passengers further out from the curb than we normally would.”

The driver pointed out that the overhangs, which appear to be made from tubular steel, have even caused problems for single-level buses because they protrude so close to the road.

In 2003, a regular Route 86 bus, slammed into the overhang at Lees Station and tore open the roof. Six passengers were treated for injuries and bystanders said it was a miracle no one was killed when the steel frame gouged the bus.
[...]
One driver said the buses simply aren’t as solidly built as the 60-footers, calling it “a chassis, four posts and a metal skin.”
[...]
The transitway shelters, meanwhile, “are built incredibly strong, so you drive something built like a tin can into it and the result is what you had yesterday.”
The notion that a double-decker driver has too much to keep track of was a major issue in the investigation of the tragic events of Sept. 18, 2013, when a two-level bus broke through rail barriers and struck a moving train just outside Fallowfield Station. Six people were killed, including the driver.

(OC Transpo has, in fact, reduced the number of monitors that an operator has to check.)

After the VIA crash, the federal Transportation Safety Board spent a good deal of effort looking at the “crashworthiness” of double-deckers. In a largely technical section of its report, it said:

“As a result, buses in this weight category, which includes most transit buses, can have different structural features that may not adequately protect the travelling public.”

Drivers also spoke of the role that speed may have played in Friday’s accident. The speed limit for buses going through a Transitway station is 50 km/h though one driver said the maximum allowable speed between Tunney’s and Westboro station is 90 km/h. [...]

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/c...ker-drivers-about-overhang-hazard-driver-says