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Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

kEiThZ said:
I have been critical of LRT. But I am equally critical of the subway plan. Neither addresses what people actually want in Scarborough: a shorter commute to the core. And both plans keep beating around the bush by tinkering with travel times on a portion of the commute.

"Shorten your bus ride with LRT!"

"Save time when you eliminate a transfer."

Why the hell can't planners and transit advocates push better integration with GO and full RER service that reduces commutes by 20-30 minutes? This is what people actually want and need. Saving 10 mins over the bus or transfer is a bandaid solution.
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A lot of us don't really trust Metrolinx's ability to actually deliver the RER we want. They are a regional agency that doesn't always consider the needs of Toronto and have to deal with government bureaucracy on a provincial level. There's also the issue of privatization (P3s because we all know how well that worked out in London), and short-selling things (ie Hydrail, lower platforms, Electric Locos instead of EMU rolling stock). New technologies (LRT, Regional Rail, etc) haven't been proven here, and can't be compared to other cities because every system is different, every city's commuting pattern is different, and every city's geography is different. There's also the desire to overbuild certain things (within reason, or at least plan for the future) to avoid transit chokepoints like the one we are in now.
 
kEiThZ said:
It's obvious why that is. Because the buses feed STC. Now imagine the bus route network reconfigured to operate from the closest GO/RER station instead of STC. Would SC have the same ridership under this scenario?
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It not like major bus routes are not feeding GO RER as well? For those that need to go straight to Union its not like you have to go to SCC first. All east-west lines are still intact intact to funnel commuters easily. With this plan there will be many well integrated options for all destination and travel types which is "problem" Scarborough has never had before and would not have had under Transit City
 
Streety McCarface said:
A lot of us don't really trust Metrolinx's ability to actually deliver the RER we want. They are a regional agency that doesn't always consider the needs of Toronto and have to deal with government bureaucracy on a provincial level.
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That's a really shitty excuse.

And instead of addressing those organizational issues, politicians skirt around it. And so transit advocates. Fix it. We should not be making decisions around spending billions of dollars, as workarounds for flawed organization.

OneCity said:
It not like major bus routes are not feeding GO RER as well?
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Some will sure. But there's a lot of routes that are SC focused today because the network is designed that way. But it's not just the routes. It's also everything else today. From frequencies on routes feeding GO to the lack of bus bays at GO stations, to the lack of fare integration. To truly have RER integration, we'll need local routes in each station's catchment area with 10 min frequencies to match the train intervals.

OneCity said:
For those that need to go straight to Union its not like you have to go to SCC first.
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You don't. But many routes are designed this way today. And we're still planning the SSE around assumption that RER will not exist, or that it can't have more service. In any real study, they'd look at tradeoffs between increasing RER frequencies in Scarborough and building the SSE. You won't find that anywhere. Nor will you find their bus network plan post RER. Etc. Doesn't seem to me like they are planning for and truly integrating RER into the travel framework. And that's post-Smart Track. If John Tory hadn't come along, the TTC might well be pretending those corridors don't exist at all.
 
Doug Ford wants to return to 'original' Scarborough subway plan
The Ford family has become synonymous with the promise of subway construction, so it’s no surprise that Progressive Conservative Leader Doug Ford kicked off his first official day of the provincial election campaign with a familiar topic — the Scarborough subway.

On Wednesday morning, Ford announced that he plans to return the highly controversial one-stop Scarborough subway plan back to its “original” form if he becomes premier.

Ford said he would add two more stops onto the existing one-stop plan.

“We’re going to go back to the original plan … the original plan was fully funded by the feds, the province and the city. We’re going to make sure we have a plan for the future of the people of Scarborough,” Ford explained.

“My friends in Scarborough, help is on the way. We’re going to build proper transit, underground transit. Not the two-tiered transit system that all the people in Scarborough have to stand out in the freezing cold in the winter and everyone else in the city gets rapid underground transit. So we will be adding two additional stops on that.”

The Scarborough subway extension was something Ford’s brother, the late Rob Ford, heavily campaigned on during his successful 2010 mayoral election bid.

The subway was to replace the proposed Scarbrough Malvern LRT — which was a part of David Miller’s Transit City plan.

Currently, the one-stop Scarbrough subway plan is estimated to cost more than $3.3 billion.

Ford wouldn’t say which two stops he would be adding to the Scarborough subway plan or how much his plan would cost.
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Hallelujah! The original 3 stop plan is much better than the 1-stop compromise. With the 3-stop plan, I think almost everyone in Scarborough will be okay with it as opposed to the great divide.
 
kEiThZ said:
That's a really shitty excuse.

And instead of addressing those organizational issues, politicians skirt around it. And so transit advocates. Fix it. We should not be making decisions around spending billions of dollars, as workarounds for flawed organization.
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Be realistic, will politicians really force Metrolinx to be fixed? No, because people don't care. They'd rather blame the people in charge of the government over blame people running the organization that informs the government.
 
One stop alone is going to be nearly $5 billion - how much for two more stops added?

Ford, yet again, is playing identity politics.

The Conservatives seem as bad as the Liberals, promising everything to everyone. The difference is that there seems to be no concrete plan in terms of spending, and they want to reduce revenue.
 
Hopkins123 said:
I noticed that you highlighted "which two stops would be added". Hopefully if it's still the McCowan alignment; the stations in question will be Brimley-Eglinton and McCowan-Lawrence.

I have mixed feelings about the alignment beyond the Town Centre, unless the interchange station will be at McCowan-Sheppard, then it'd make sense to expand to that point.
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Or to Finch/Markham Road. That way the CPR lands could be used as a train yard in case the DRL wants to use Woodbine.
 
Sakraycore said:
Hallelujah! The original 3 stop plan is much better than the 1-stop compromise. With the 3-stop plan, I think almost everyone in Scarborough will be okay with it as opposed to the great divide.
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Pretty much the majority of Scarborough was always OK with a subway or more importantly seamless connections to our Centre from the BDL and Sheppard. We just keep being told otherwise from Political outsiders to accept a short sighted transit plan full of transfers. Unfortunately this route is the only option now for a seamless connection with extra deep bore costs. But it will undoubtedly be the best route for the for leaving the greatest future legacy with more central stop locations and the hospital.
 
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Between spending 4 billion on the one stop plan and spending 5 billion on a three stop plan, I'd rather they do the the three stop plan.

I mean I'd rather they do the LRT, but since the subway seems destined to go forward, they should do it right the first time.

Though if costs continue to rise, one stop might be all you get at 5 billion too. *Shrug*
 
Tuck said:
Between spending 4 billion on the one stop plan and spending 5 billion on a three stop plan, I'd rather they do the the three stop plan.

I mean I'd rather they do the LRT, but since the subway seems destined to go forward, they should do it right the first time.

Though if costs continue to rise, one stop might be all you get at 5 billion too. *Shrug*
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Let's be honest, the LRT is stupid. If they're going to leave a transfer in there, just expand the SRT to use new Innova trains.
 
Tuck said:
Between spending 4 billion on the one stop plan and spending 5 billion on a three stop plan, I'd rather they do the the three stop plan.

I mean I'd rather they do the LRT, but since the subway seems destined to go forward, they should do it right the first time.

Though if costs continue to rise, one stop might be all you get at 5 billion too. *Shrug*
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Two years ago the cost of the three stop plan was estimated to be $4.3 billion - that's why they switched to a $2 billion, one stop plan. Now that same one stop plan has essentially doubled in cost to about $4 billion (and very possibly more).

Going back to the three stop plan isn't going to cost $5 billion. Based on how far off they were with their estimates a few years ago, it's probably between $6 billion and $7 billion at the very least.

Between that, extending Sheppard and the Crosstown LRT (which Ford wants to bury) and RER we have massive overkill. Spending billions upon billions of dollars making Kennedy the most connected station in the system makes very little sense given the transit needs the rest of the city has.
 
syn said:
Two years ago the cost of the three stop plan was estimated to be $4.3 billion - that's why they switched to a $2 billion, one stop plan. Now that same one stop plan has essentially doubled in cost to about $4 billion (and very possibly more).

Going back to the three stop plan isn't going to cost $5 billion. Based on how far off they were with their estimates a few years ago, it's probably between $6 billion and $7 billion at the very least.

Between that, extending Sheppard and the Crosstown LRT (which Ford wants to bury) and RER we have massive overkill. Spending billions upon billions of dollars making Kennedy the most connected station in the system makes very little sense given the transit needs the rest of the city has.
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you mean making STC the most connection station? It would be about as connected as Yonge/Bloor, St.George, and Finch station. So not really the most connected, just well connected.
 
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