Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[Rainforest]

The main reason for building SSE is improving connections with numerous bus routes that serve northern and eastern Scarborough.

Supporting the development at Scarborough Centre is a secondary goal. That's useful too, but wouldn't necessarily require a subway connection.

 

[OneCity]

Problems exists across the whole transit system; however, Scarborough is the most remote from other places, and Scarborough residents have to travel longest to even get to a terminal subway station.

It is amusing that some people attempt to deny that fact, despite it being obvious at the first glance at the TTC map.

If the TTC was forced to draw the map illustrating the entire City of Toronto from end to end it would be even more obvious

 

[44 North]

Problems exists across the whole transit system; however, Scarborough is the most remote from other places, and Scarborough residents have to travel longest to even get to a terminal subway station.

It is amusing that some people attempt to deny that fact, despite it being obvious at the first glance at the TTC map.

Line 3 extension went to Progress/Sheppard. Line 2 extension goes to McCowan/Ellesemere, with no inline stations. In other words Scarboro will be even more remote with SSE than the previous plans for Line 3. I have major faults with both projects, but find it amusing that some attempt to tiptoe around that fact.

For the ~$1-2bn cost of removing the transfer between Line 2 and 3 at Kennedy we could put the money towards something that actually reduces Scarbo's remoteness. Perhaps a variation of a Line 4 extn or something.

 

[OneCity]

Line 3 extension went to Progress/Sheppard. Line 2 extension goes to McCowan/Ellesemere, with no inline stations. In other words Scarboro will be even more remote with SSE than the previous plans for Line 3. I have major faults with both projects, but find it amusing that some attempt to tiptoe around that fact.

For the ~$1-2bn cost of removing the transfer between Line 2 and 3 at Kennedy we could put the money towards something that actually reduces Scarbo's remoteness. Perhaps a variation of a Line 4 extn or something.

Both Smarttrack and SSE together will provide both greater efficiency and redundant access to the Downtown Core which has been an obstacle and deterrent for many residents for decades. The Eglinton East LRT will be the continuation of a reliable local network which will reach reasonably close to the eastern edge of Scarborough, as its runs thru priority neighborhoods and to university. This overall plan to move forward with does a fantastic job solving the remoteness and connectivity problem while continuing to improve local transit. Could it have been done cheaper? Of course. Will going back achieve significant savings? Not really. Any new plan takes quite a long time and will only lead to further debate as costs escalate further. Also the old Line 3 corridor is likely now occupied by ST/GO-RER.

Line 4 will surely follow in the next phase and base on support and what we are going to build here they will likely be extensions of both the stubway to SCC and Eglinton East LRT into Malvern. An inline station being removed at the hospital is very unfortunate although I'd wager a large dim-sum feast at STC we'll see it added back in after the election when Transit City is put to rest for good.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Both Smarttrack and SSE together will provide greater efficiency and redundant access to the Downtown Core which has been an obstacle and deterrent for many residents for decades. The Eglinton East LRT will be the continuation of a reliable local network which will reach reasonably close to the eastern edge of Scarborough, as its runs thru priority neighborhoods and to university. This overall plan to move forward with does a fantastic job solving the remoteness and connectivity problem while continuing to improve local transit. Could it have been done cheaper? Of course. Will going back achieve significant savings? Not really. Any new plan takes quite a long time and will only lead to further debate as costs escalate further. Also the old Line 3 corridor is likely now occupied by ST/GO-RER.

Line 4 will surely follow in the next phase and base on support and what we are going to build here they will likely be extensions of both the stubway to SCC and Eglinton East LRT into Malvern. An inline station being removed at the hospital is very unfortunate although I'd wager a large dim-sum feast at STC we'll see it added back in after the election when Transit City is put to rest for good.

Wow, actually a good reply.

 

[44 North]

Both Smarttrack and SSE together will provide greater efficiency and redundant access to the Downtown Core which has been an obstacle and deterrent for many residents for decades. The Eglinton East LRT will be the continuation of a reliable local network which will reach reasonably close to the eastern edge of Scarborough, as its runs thru priority neighborhoods and to university. This overall plan to move forward with does a fantastic job solving the remoteness and connectivity problem while continuing to improve local transit. Could it have been done cheaper? Of course. Will going back achieve significant savings? Not really. Any new plan takes quite a long time and will only lead to further debate as costs escalate further. Also the old Line 3 corridor is likely now occupied by ST/GO-RER.

Line 4 will surely follow in the next phase and base on support and what we are going to build here they will likely be extensions of both the stubway to SCC and Eglinton East LRT into Malvern. An inline station being removed at the hospital is very unfortunate although I'd wager a large dim-sum feast at STC we'll see it added back in after the election when Transit City is put to rest for good.

SmrtTrack/RER I largely ignore in this instance of subway debates just cuz it's mostly fantasy. We don't know what its end result is, how much will actually be built, how its fares will be setup, or how it will go toe-to-toe with a rapid transit service. Good for the outer suburbs sure, but Scarb is TO and still needs rapid transit coverage. And I've seen you prattle on about how awful the Lawrence East station location is. If you think it's horrid for an rt service at 3min frequency, not sure why you think it'll be so much better for a commuter service at 15min and likely costing double or triple normal fares.

East Crosstown East I don't have much faith in being built as the line on the map shows. It's going to cost a lot more than realized and be way more complex. We're already seeing this with options of grade-separations which didn't exist mere months ago. But ultimately I'm going to ignore it in how it relates to my reply to Rainforest because it, like ST/RER, isn't the subway-type service being discussed. SSE and Line 3 are.

Line 4 extn... I think it *could* happen, provided that our planners are more open to options between a 6-car deep bore subway and in-median LRT. But they're not. So yeah, as it stands Scarb will be even more "remote" with SSE than with Line 3 plans. And by "plans" I'm including the simpler upgrade that preceded SLRT. History didn't begin in the late 2000s, so can't ignore viable options before that period.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

So now that that's settled, sounds we debate the merits of a line 2 extension to Sherway

 

[MisterF]

SmrtTrack/RER I largely ignore in this instance of subway debates just cuz it's mostly fantasy. We don't know what its end result is, how much will actually be built, how its fares will be setup, or how it will go toe-to-toe with a rapid transit service. Good for the outer suburbs sure, but Scarb is TO and still needs rapid transit coverage. And I've seen you prattle on about how awful the Lawrence East station location is. If you think it's horrid for an rt service at 3min frequency, not sure why you think it'll be so much better for a commuter service at 15min and likely costing double or triple normal fares.

East Crosstown East I don't have much faith in being built as the line on the map shows. It's going to cost a lot more than realized and be way more complex. We're already seeing this with options of grade-separations which didn't exist mere months ago. But ultimately I'm going to ignore it in how it relates to my reply to Rainforest because it, like ST/RER, isn't the subway-type service being discussed. SSE and Line 3 are.

Line 4 extn... I think it *could* happen, provided that our planners are more open to options between a 6-car deep bore subway and in-median LRT. But they're not. So yeah, as it stands Scarb will be even more "remote" with SSE than with Line 3 plans. And by "plans" I'm including the simpler upgrade that preceded SLRT. History didn't begin in the late 2000s, so can't ignore viable options before that period.

RER is not fantasy. It's under construction, which is more than can be said about any subway extension at the moment. Fares are going to be integrated with the TTC so it won't cost double or triple what the subway will cost. There's no way that the province is going to spend tens of billions of dollars on RER just to have it underused because of an archaic fare system. As beneficial as the current fare system is to suburban subway extensions, its days are numbered. Frequencies will likely be higher than 15 minutes on the Stouffville line because of the Smarttrack enhancements, whatever their final form ends up being. I know that we don't really have anything like RER in North America, but what makes it so effective is precisely that it is a subway-style form of transit on existing rail corridors.

Even if RER fares and frequencies are up in the air at the moment, you can say the same about a subway extension to Scarborough. Changing the fares and increasing frequencies on an existing rail line is simpler than building an underground subway. If improving bus connections is the main benefit of the subway as Rainforest states, RER will do a much better job of that because it will serve six different stations on the Stouffville line in Scarborough alone. It will have bus connections at Steeles, Finch, Sheppard, Lawrence, Eglinton, and St. Clair, which is most of the major east-west bus routes in Scarborough. The only thing it can't do is serve Scarborough Centre directly, but that's what the SRT is for.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Line 4 extn... I think it *could* happen, provided that our planners are more open to options between a 6-car deep bore subway and in-median LRT. But they're not. So yeah, as it stands Scarb will be even more "remote" with SSE than with Line 3 plans. And by "plans" I'm including the simpler upgrade that preceded SLRT. History didn't begin in the late 2000s, so can't ignore viable options before that period.

In many ways, I honestly think the line 4 extensions east and west could have been better for Scarborough than a line 2 extension, though we don't know the true costs so it's very difficult to make a fair argument, but as it goes:
-There would be fewer stations, so dwell times wouldn't be as bad (Especially with RLN coming), meaning trips could be faster
-The line would see more utilization and potentially become busier
-The line would provide Scarborough with 4 ways to get downtown: Via Sheppard Subway and Relief Line, Via Sheppard Subway and Yonge Line, Via Sheppard Subway and Spadina Line, Via Eglinton Crosstown and Lines 1 (Y), 1 (U/S), 2, 3 (RL). With this setup, you could get almost anywhere in the city with only 0-1 seamless rapid transit transfers (Uptown, Midtown, Downtown, East York, Etobicoke, Vaughan, York University, and eventually Richmond Hill and potentially Mississauga)
-The line uses shorter trains and runs with slightly longer headways, but all this can be upgraded with ease if future demand persists.
-The shorter trains will save money on electricity costs, as well as maintenance. The line is also newer in general, so it won't cause as much wear on existing stations.
-There would be more rapid transit stations in Scarborough (LRT that isn't fully grade separated is not "rapid transit", but it is most certainly higher capacity, higher order transit)
-Sheppard connectivity to Wilson Yard and Line 1 (Y) direct connection to Wilson yard. The availability to store trains there and turn trains around Via Sheppard would do wonders for the city's rush hour issues.
-Less deadheading when trains go out of service and enter service
-Would keep Scarborough commuters off busy lines like the Danforth line (the 3rd busiest line and approaching a choke point if I'm not mistaken after Yonge and University)
-Can utilize OPTO which would save millions annually for the TTC
-People would transfer at Sheppard Yonge, Sheppard West, or Sheppard-Don, and not at Bloor-Yonge/St George, meaning fewer people on those platforms and potentially saving lives
-Opens up possibilities for a new subway rail yard, maybe even for RLN.

So now that that's settled, sounds we debate the merits of a line 2 extension to Sherway

Well, since the Milton line is the most crowded GO line and will barely be upgraded, and with so many people taking the QEW to Gardiner entering Toronto on a daily basis, that in itself can serve as a fair argument for any westward line 2 extension.

 

[syn]

Line 3 extension went to Progress/Sheppard. Line 2 extension goes to McCowan/Ellesemere, with no inline stations. In other words Scarboro will be even more remote with SSE than the previous plans for Line 3. I have major faults with both projects, but find it amusing that some attempt to tiptoe around that fact.

For the ~$1-2bn cost of removing the transfer between Line 2 and 3 at Kennedy we could put the money towards something that actually reduces Scarbo's remoteness. Perhaps a variation of a Line 4 extn or something.

I agree, but it's not going to be $1 billion - $2 billion. We're already in the $4 billion - $5 billion range.

For that cost you could build an LRT network to connect Scarborough.

Completely insane cost to get rid of a transfer and reduce access.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Seriously...why does this "one-stop" subway project cost so much?

 

[Streety McCarface]

Seriously...why does this "one-stop" subway project cost so much?

Challenges of the terrain, digging deep, going under a creek, deep and huge stations, keeping the SRT running for an extra 10-15 years, dismantling and demolishing the srt, building a huge bus terminal at the STC (that's like 250 million right there), landscaping, property acquisition, buying new tbms, shortness of workers.

 

[Sakraycore]

I think as long as STC is directly connected to subway, we're fine with being connected to line 2 or line 4. It's no difference. In some ways I think being connected to line 4 makes more sense. Since Yonge/Finch is a real destination nowadays.

Also, Fairview Mall is a popular destination in Scarborough (by car) too, but it's a pain getting there as of right now. But if STC is connected to line 4, then Fairview mall becomes a really attractive destination.

I mean, it is true that spending $4-5billion (not an official figure, just what is being quoted) on 1 subway stop is absolute insanity, but it does serve the purpose of connecting STC directly to the subway which is very much appreciated and will be very useful.

 

[syn]

I think as long as STC is directly connected to subway, we're fine with being connected to line 2 or line 4. It's no difference. In some ways I think being connected to line 4 makes more sense. Since Yonge/Finch is a real destination nowadays.

Also, Fairview Mall is a popular destination in Scarborough (by car) too, but it's a pain getting there as of right now. But if STC is connected to line 4, then Fairview mall becomes a really attractive destination.

I mean, it is true that spending $4-5billion (not an official figure, just what is being quoted) on 1 subway stop is absolute insanity, but it does serve the purpose of connecting STC directly to the subway which is very much appreciated and will be very useful.

See, here's the thing - based on the Scarborough's transit history, it won't be appreciated at all. The RT has served Scarborough well for decades and now it's treated with contempt, despite the fact it's pretty empty most of the time.

Once reality sets in, plenty of riders unaware that their RT stops will be removed are going to be up in arms - especially those that use Lawrence. Others will question why it's just one, long, 6km stop with nothing in between, a line ultimately far less 'useful' than the since demolished RT. Then there will be calls for 'real' transit, just like downtown, with shorter rides and more stops. Some populist will call for more 'subways' for the oppressed people of Scarborough, questioning why evil downtown councilors and residents conspired to stop them from getting more stops in the first place. We'll all then be treated to Scarborough holding the rest of the city hostage as they're convinced by a con artist that their transit wants are more important than the transit needs around the rest of the city.

As long as planning is based on ego stroking and validation, there will never be satisfaction.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

I wonder why they didn't go with a line 4 extension instead. It would also bring enough traffic on it that it wouldn't need to be so heavily subsidized. It would make for a longer trek downtown, but it would mean getting on the Yonge line well ahead of the crush at Bloor