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Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

TheTigerMaster said:
Malvern residents left without rapid transit options despite promised improvements

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...it-options-despite-promised-improvements.html
Click to expand...

Malvern's situation deteriorated the moment SLRT was cut back to a terminus at Sheppard, instead of reaching Malvern Centre. An underground shortcut from Sheppard & Progress to Malvern Centre would make trips to Malvern much faster.

With LRT terminus at Sheppard, they aren't better off than with the subway.

The obvious solution is to restore the light rail line, but only between STC and Malvern Centre.
 
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Rainforest said:
Are you not paying attention?

Transit expansion is all over the city, light rail will be added gradually in all areas including Scarborough.

SSE didn't eat up any of the light rail funding, except for the one line it is replacing. Your statement is totally wrong.



Very few riders are within walking distance from those stops. Much more are taking a connecting bus, and their commutes will improve.
Click to expand...

Actually, I'm totally correct.

New Scarborough transit plan ‘buys peace in the land’

"Under a new plan, the Scarborough subway extension would run directly from Kennedy Station to the Scarborough Town Centre freeing up money for 12-kilometre LRT.

The new proposal cuts out stops at Lawrence East and Sheppard Ave. Senior sources say by removing them, and the need to tunnel north from Scarborough Town Centre to Sheppard Ave., the city can save more than $1 billion. It would be possible to continue the subway north in the future if the need and the funding were available.

The savings would be used towards a different LRT — one that is modified from a line first put forward in the early iterations of former mayor David Miller’s light rail plan called Transit City. That 12-kilometre LRT would be an extension of the Eglinton Crosstown line already under construction — dubbed Crosstown East"

The current (and inaccurate) number of $3.56 billion was supposed to cover the Eglinton Crosstown East and the one-stop extension. The entire reason they switched to this plan was that there wasn't enough money for a three stop extension.

That's exactly why cavalier suggestions that they add one more stop have absolutely no basis in reality. There's no money left, and despite paring this plan down to it's bare essentials, costs continue to escalate far beyond what anyone could consider reasonable.

There are other areas of the city that actually have a need for subway expansion. Dropping billions more into Scarborough after spending $4+ billion on one stop is not only irresponsible, it's unfair to the rest of the city and it's taxpayers.

If this entire debate wasn't about identity politics, they would've switched to an LRT plan a long, long time ago. The only reason the one stop solution is going ahead is because it would be political suicide to oppose it.

This has been pointed out numerous times in this thread, and this source has been shared too - this is at least the 2nd time I've posted it.

It leaves me to wonder if SSE supporters are actually reading through the facts posted, or just providing knee-jerk responses in defense of a plan that's become indefensible.
 
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syn said:
Actually, I'm totally correct.

New Scarborough transit plan ‘buys peace in the land’

"Under a new plan, the Scarborough subway extension would run directly from Kennedy Station to the Scarborough Town Centre freeing up money for 12-kilometre LRT.

The new proposal cuts out stops at Lawrence East and Sheppard Ave. Senior sources say by removing them, and the need to tunnel north from Scarborough Town Centre to Sheppard Ave., the city can save more than $1 billion. It would be possible to continue the subway north in the future if the need and the funding were available.

The savings would be used towards a different LRT — one that is modified from a line first put forward in the early iterations of former mayor David Miller’s light rail plan called Transit City. That 12-kilometre LRT would be an extension of the Eglinton Crosstown line already under construction — dubbed Crosstown East"

The current (and inaccurate) number of $3.56 billion was supposed to cover the Eglinton Crosstown and the one-stop extension. The entire reason they switched to this plan was that there wasn't enough money for a three stop extension.

That's exactly why cavalier suggestions that they add one more stop have absolutely no basis in reality. There's no money left, and despite paring this plan down to it's bare essentials, costs continue to escalate far beyond what anyone could consider reasonable.

There are other areas of the city that actually have a need for subway expansion. Dropping billions more into Scarborough after spending $4+ billion on one stop is not only irresponsible, it's unfair to the rest of the city and it's taxpayers.

If this entire debate wasn't about identity politics, they would've switched to an LRT plan a long, long time ago. The only reason the one stop solution is going ahead is because it would be political suicide to oppose it.

This has been pointed out numerous times in this thread, and this source has been shared too - this is at least the 2nd time I've posted it.

It leaves me to wonder if SSE supporters are actually reading through the facts posted, or just providing knee-jerk responses in defense of a plan that's become indefensible.
Click to expand...


Lets call it what it is, the hacked in Transit City - LRT line gives value for Downtown residents not to have to pay for an integrated plan into Scarborough. There were better options studied and were recommended to be better of "value" and yet rejected by the Opposition council still pushing for this transfer line.

Secondly we need hundreds of billions for transportation infrastructure over the next 50 to 100 years. A lack of consistent Provincial/Federal funding model to support constant growth and expansion is no excuse to cry "There's not money left". Transit City failed on its own merits of poor connectivity , beating this dead horse LRT plan has done nothing to save anyone money. Its actually cost us much more denying better options. It's nice to see the Provincial Cons proposing to take this out of the divided City's hands so they can free up the SSE money and extend the LRT on Eglinton further into Scarborough where it makes sense to the majority of people who live here.
 
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Rainforest said:
Malvern's situation deteriorated the moment SLRT was cut back to a terminus at Sheppard, instead of reaching Malvern Centre. An underground shortcut from Sheppard & Progress to Malvern Centre would make trips to Malvern much faster.

With LRT terminus at Sheppard, they aren't better off than with the subway.

The obvious solution is to restore the light rail line, but only between STC and Malvern Centre.
Click to expand...

Bus-LRT-Subway is the reality for most residents in Malvern amongst most other Scarborough residents but they only look at the small minority who would be improved by living at Markham and Milner. Its insane they were not taking the LRT to Malvern Town Centre.

The subway to SCC will also provide greater benefit and impact the lives of all Scarborough residents in the future. Building subway to Vaughan Centre & North York Centre and putting a transfer before Scarborough Centre is terrible optics. And for good reason optics are important to most Scarborough residents for good reason. Also don't think Malvern residents are not aware of the Sheppard stubway just a bit West and the subway loop that should be built which will also lessen their bus commutes.

Will be very interesting to see how Malvern is connected going , there are so many options, which is never a good thing with this council. The LRT spur from the City Centre to Malvern TC and connect with Eglinton East would be a great plan.
 
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syn said:
Actually, I'm totally correct.
Click to expand...

Actually you are wrong.

syn said:

"Under a new plan, the Scarborough subway extension would run directly from Kennedy Station to the Scarborough Town Centre freeing up money for 12-kilometre LRT.

The new proposal cuts out stops at Lawrence East and Sheppard Ave. Senior sources say by removing them, and the need to tunnel north from Scarborough Town Centre to Sheppard Ave., the city can save more than $1 billion. It would be possible to continue the subway north in the future if the need and the funding were available.

The savings would be used towards a different LRT — one that is modified from a line first put forward in the early iterations of former mayor David Miller’s light rail plan called Transit City. That 12-kilometre LRT would be an extension of the Eglinton Crosstown line already under construction — dubbed Crosstown East"

The current (and inaccurate) number of $3.56 billion was supposed to cover the Eglinton Crosstown East and the one-stop extension. The entire reason they switched to this plan was that there wasn't enough money for a three stop extension.

That's exactly why cavalier suggestions that they add one more stop have absolutely no basis in reality. There's no money left, and despite paring this plan down to it's bare essentials, costs continue to escalate far beyond what anyone could consider reasonable.

There are other areas of the city that actually have a need for subway expansion. Dropping billions more into Scarborough after spending $4+ billion on one stop is not only irresponsible, it's unfair to the rest of the city and it's taxpayers.

If this entire debate wasn't about identity politics, they would've switched to an LRT plan a long, long time ago. The only reason the one stop solution is going ahead is because it would be political suicide to oppose it.

This has been pointed out numerous times in this thread, and this source has been shared too - this is at least the 2nd time I've posted it.
Click to expand...

You are conveniently forgetting the Eglinton East LRT had no dedicated funding before the SSE project started. All attempts to fund Eglinton East were a spin-off of the SSE project so far.

I'll be happy to see Eglinton East built, but it is totally ridiculous to claim that its funding has been consumed by SSE. It had no its own funding in the first place.

syn said:
It leaves me to wonder if SSE supporters are actually reading through the facts posted, or just providing knee-jerk responses in defense of a plan that's become indefensible.
Click to expand...

Apparently, you are the one who doesn't read through the facts posted, or through any posts you are responding to. Your Eglinton East misgivings is one example of that.

Another example, a few days ago you posted some light rail scheme with the Eglinton East line going "back to Kennedy via STC". When asked to clarify how exactly you would route that line, you just fell silent.
 
Rainforest said:
You are conveniently forgetting the Eglinton East LRT had no dedicated funding before the SSE project started. All attempts to fund Eglinton East were a spin-off of the SSE project so far.

I'll be happy to see Eglinton East built, but it is totally ridiculous to claim that its funding has been consumed by SSE. It had no its own funding in the first place.
Click to expand...

Their claim wasn't that the SSE ate up LRT funding that was available before the SSE project started. Their claim was that the SSE ate up LRT funding.
 
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Reactions: syn
TheTigerMaster said:
Their claim wasn't that the SSE ate up LRT funding that was available before the SSE project started. Their claim was that the SSE ate up LRT funding.
Click to expand...

Exactly. I'll post it yet again, for those living in fantasy land:

New Scarborough transit plan ‘buys peace in the land’

"Under a new plan, the Scarborough subway extension would run directly from Kennedy Station to the Scarborough Town Centre freeing up money for 12-kilometre LRT.

The new proposal cuts out stops at Lawrence East and Sheppard Ave. Senior sources say by removing them, and the need to tunnel north from Scarborough Town Centre to Sheppard Ave., the city can save more than $1 billion. It would be possible to continue the subway north in the future if the need and the funding were available.

The savings would be used towards a different LRT — one that is modified from a line first put forward in the early iterations of former mayor David Miller’s light rail plan called Transit City. That 12-kilometre LRT would be an extension of the Eglinton Crosstown line already under construction — dubbed Crosstown East"


Here's bonus coverage from the right-leaning National Post and The Globe & Mail, for those who think that the Crosstown East being part of Tory's fully funded transit plan is some sort of Toronto Star conspiracy:


Toronto mayor declares end to transit 'civil war' as he unveils latest plan for Scarborough subway, LRT

"Tory said Thursday the plan should be doable for “roughly” the same cost as the original, $3.5 billion three-stop Scarborough subway proposal.

In the press conference, Tory returned again and again to the theme of expert advice. Past proposals, he said, had been derailed or disfigured by politics. This one, he promised, was the product of the city’s professional planning staff."


Scarborough subway would shrink under plan to extend Eglinton Crosstown

"The plan by city staff, which is expected to be released Thursday morning, involves cutting short the subway and using the extra money to add a 12-kilometre extension of the Eglinton Crosstown light rail line, taking it to the University of Toronto campus in Scarborough."


Are we still going to have SSE advocates pretend that building the Crosstown East LRT extension and a one stop SSE for $3.56 billion wasn't part of the plan, despite the fact it's been reported by reputable new organizations, presented by city staff and John Tory himself?

Are SSE advocates still going to pretend that the current cost of the SSE has now risen so significantly there's no money for the Crosstown East extension?

Are we finally going to have SSE advocates present a case based on facts, and not their personal feelings, wants and conspiracy theories?
 
syn said:
Exactly. I'll post it yet again, for those living in fantasy land:

New Scarborough transit plan ‘buys peace in the land’

"Under a new plan, the Scarborough subway extension would run directly from Kennedy Station to the Scarborough Town Centre freeing up money for 12-kilometre LRT.

The new proposal cuts out stops at Lawrence East and Sheppard Ave. Senior sources say by removing them, and the need to tunnel north from Scarborough Town Centre to Sheppard Ave., the city can save more than $1 billion. It would be possible to continue the subway north in the future if the need and the funding were available.

The savings would be used towards a different LRT — one that is modified from a line first put forward in the early iterations of former mayor David Miller’s light rail plan called Transit City. That 12-kilometre LRT would be an extension of the Eglinton Crosstown line already under construction — dubbed Crosstown East"


Here's bonus coverage from the right-leaning National Post and The Globe & Mail, for those who think that the Crosstown East being part of Tory's fully funded transit plan is some sort of Toronto Star conspiracy:


Toronto mayor declares end to transit 'civil war' as he unveils latest plan for Scarborough subway, LRT

"Tory said Thursday the plan should be doable for “roughly” the same cost as the original, $3.5 billion three-stop Scarborough subway proposal.

In the press conference, Tory returned again and again to the theme of expert advice. Past proposals, he said, had been derailed or disfigured by politics. This one, he promised, was the product of the city’s professional planning staff."


Scarborough subway would shrink under plan to extend Eglinton Crosstown

"The plan by city staff, which is expected to be released Thursday morning, involves cutting short the subway and using the extra money to add a 12-kilometre extension of the Eglinton Crosstown light rail line, taking it to the University of Toronto campus in Scarborough."


Are we still going to have SSE advocates pretend that building the Crosstown East LRT extension and a one stop SSE for $3.56 billion wasn't part of the plan, despite the fact it's been reported by reputable new organizations, presented by city staff and John Tory himself?

Are SSE advocates still going to pretend that the current cost of the SSE has now risen so significantly there's no money for the Crosstown East extension?

Are we finally going to have SSE advocates present a case based on facts, and not their personal feelings, wants and conspiracy theories?
Click to expand...

There’s not a UT member that doenst know that. Some would rather play dumb pendantic
games, to act as if the SSE cost overruns didn’t consume the EELRT funds.
 
The big question I have is why does the SSE take priority for funding. Why not starting building the EELRT first and then build SSE with left-over money. If not enough money, then ask for more. SSE will take 10 years to built. EELRT can be built essentially in next 4-5 years as the EA is done and some preliminary stop and designs are done - The city has funding to do an RFP and to tender it out. The benefit would be that transit would get to Scarborough sooner... We can't have that.
 
syn said:
Exactly. I'll post it yet again, for those living in fantasy land:

New Scarborough transit plan ‘buys peace in the land’

"Under a new plan, the Scarborough subway extension would run directly from Kennedy Station to the Scarborough Town Centre freeing up money for 12-kilometre LRT.

The new proposal cuts out stops at Lawrence East and Sheppard Ave. Senior sources say by removing them, and the need to tunnel north from Scarborough Town Centre to Sheppard Ave., the city can save more than $1 billion. It would be possible to continue the subway north in the future if the need and the funding were available.

The savings would be used towards a different LRT — one that is modified from a line first put forward in the early iterations of former mayor David Miller’s light rail plan called Transit City. That 12-kilometre LRT would be an extension of the Eglinton Crosstown line already under construction — dubbed Crosstown East"


Here's bonus coverage from the right-leaning National Post and The Globe & Mail, for those who think that the Crosstown East being part of Tory's fully funded transit plan is some sort of Toronto Star conspiracy:


Toronto mayor declares end to transit 'civil war' as he unveils latest plan for Scarborough subway, LRT

"Tory said Thursday the plan should be doable for “roughly” the same cost as the original, $3.5 billion three-stop Scarborough subway proposal.

In the press conference, Tory returned again and again to the theme of expert advice. Past proposals, he said, had been derailed or disfigured by politics. This one, he promised, was the product of the city’s professional planning staff."


Scarborough subway would shrink under plan to extend Eglinton Crosstown

"The plan by city staff, which is expected to be released Thursday morning, involves cutting short the subway and using the extra money to add a 12-kilometre extension of the Eglinton Crosstown light rail line, taking it to the University of Toronto campus in Scarborough."


Are we still going to have SSE advocates pretend that building the Crosstown East LRT extension and a one stop SSE for $3.56 billion wasn't part of the plan, despite the fact it's been reported by reputable new organizations, presented by city staff and John Tory himself?

Are SSE advocates still going to pretend that the current cost of the SSE has now risen so significantly there's no money for the Crosstown East extension?

Are we finally going to have SSE advocates present a case based on facts, and not their personal feelings, wants and conspiracy theories?
Click to expand...

Are you going to finally provide details of your own "LRT loop back" plan, instead of posting your irrelevant links again and again?
 
Peace in the land?

If a subway goes from Kennedy to Scarborough Centre, why no station at Lawrence and McCowan? Why do the "subways, subways, subways" demographic hold a grudge against the Scarborough Hospital? One day, they will end up going there.

Therefore, a Line 2 extension is not needed within the next few decades. Better wait until there's sufficient demand according to planning experts and not populist politicians, as well as having sufficient funds for it.
 
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I think it's more than possible, using past engineering examples in this very city, that we could see SSE's cost/complexity come down. And with enough funds leftover to build a station at Lawrence. The current project design doesn't make sense. 100ft deep to cross two tiny valleys? C'mon. If that's the case then RL will make SSE look like childsplay (going to Don Mills/Sheppard has four very large valley crossings).

Whether there'll be enough within the funding envelope for EELRT/SMLRT remains to be seen. Not really because I think SSE will increase more than estimated (how can it), but because even tram-style LRT can be more expensive than estimated. Laying rail is one thing, but with the nines of capital roadway works (burying hydro, sewer realignment, utilities, bridge stuff, streetscaping, etc) there's always unforeseen increases too. Then EA amendments for a grade-separation or two and we may as well call it quits since we'd be back to square one. But yeah with SSE I think the window is still wide open for cost/complexity decreases.
 
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