Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[Rainforest]

Again, if you voted for someone brain-dead, the choice is solely the responsibility of the one making that choice, not that of anyone else. The rest of the slate might not be one’s ideological ideal, but if the choice is between someone with brains and not having one, it is clear what choice has to be made.

AoD

While that's true, the problem is that the group of people "responsible" in an abstract sense isn't necessarily the same as the group that feels the actual consequences.

For example, a large % of voters don't use public transit at all, or use it occasionally. Most of them vaguely agree that a better transit is a good idea. However if they elect someone like Rob Ford and that person messes up the transit plans, they don't really feel any negative effects.

Meanwhile people who use transit regularly, like I guess nearly everyone on this forum, get stuck with the result of the vote, even if they never voted for Rob Ford.

 

[Leo_Chan]

While that's true, the problem is that the group of people "responsible" in an abstract sense isn't necessarily the same as the group that feels the actual consequences.

For example, a large % of voters don't use public transit at all, or use it occasionally. Most of them vaguely agree that a better transit is a good idea. However if they elect someone like Rob Ford and that person messes up the transit plans, they don't really feel any negative effects.

Meanwhile people who use transit regularly, like I guess nearly everyone on this forum, get stuck with the result of the vote, even if they never voted for Rob Ford.

If only voting people for mayor wasn’t just one or the other, but multiple items for which one can mix and match whomever they wanted or agreed with.

 

[Rainforest]

If only voting people for mayor wasn’t just one or the other, but multiple items for which one can mix and match whomever they wanted or agreed with.

Definitely, it is a complex process; no single issue completely determines the outcome of elections. In fact, Rob Ford got more support in 2010 by promising to cut the taxes and reduce the public spending, than he got due to his transit plans.

 

[OneCity]

Definitely, it is a complex process; no single issue completely determines the outcome of elections. In fact, Rob Ford got more support in 2010 by promising to cut the taxes and reduce the public spending, than he got due to his transit plans.

He ran on3 main items that were all at the forefront: Lower taxes, weak leadership on union negotiations/garbage strike and a poor transit plan.

I don't agree with low taxes per say, although accountability in all governments needs to be enforced even Ford himself was not accountable in many ways, the unions needed a kick in mid section and this admin certainly got it done with no strike and the transit plan that poorly integrated and removed vehicle lanes was cancelled as was clearly pointed out in the campaign. Certainly not one topic, but transit is huge and was right a the top of the campaign.

If we are going removing vehicle lanes in the core (which make sense to me)to be narrowing the streets surrounding the core for bike lanes, and spending on fancy parks then the priority was and should be better connectivity to the main economic core Downtown with subway and GO RER and improved bus, BRT or LRT secondary importance. There is no need to remove car lanes in the inner suburbs, nor need for transfer in front of the City Centre, and the priority is not a local network over better connectivity that has been long neglected to begin with.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Except these promises are mutually contradictory - recall his constant claims that you don't need to raise taxes to build subways, and how the private sector will be lining up to pay for it? It didn't turn out to be true in either case - and in some ways poisoned the well with the promise of getting something for nothing.

AoD

 

[OneCity]

Except these promises are mutually contradictory - recall his constant claims that you don't need to raise taxes to build subways, and how the private sector will be lining up to pay for it? It didn't turn out to be true in either case - and in some ways poisoned the well with the promise of getting something for nothing.

AoD

Indeed. And taxes and lack of funding plan have been the root cause of the shoddy transit proposals to begin with. The good news was taxes were finally raised here as they should be on a number of capital projects going forward. Subways shouldn't be left to the municipal government to deal with any further and we are now finally seeing the Fed showing signs of coming forward with funding although not in form of a clear sustainable approach as of yet. If the Province uploads subway expansion from the City as already proposed the City can use the tax and hopefully continue to focus on local expansion which is a big step to remove the populist if spent equitably.

There is too much fear from the inner suburbs on where the tax money will go in his City. We hear it all the time what "priority" in the City and that is a promlemtic debate in a mega City and low tax resonates with these people and not just the wealthy Tory base. Until we see better transit connections and unity which supports greater detail in projects thru out he City it will be tough to sell high taxes to support "priority" Downtown transit and other projects like rail deck park.

I think Torys transit plan provides a good mix with far better connectivity to the Dowtown Core along with the start of a local network. If pushed forward with the DRL now that the Feds are at the table this may be a corner stone in adding some confidence and bridge the City to share a more united view for both capital and operation/ maintenence concerns on transit which also requires a better funding model. Building together will go along way to making the Populist irrelevant. Any other approach will continue to have consequences.

 

[rbt]

... the unions needed a kick in mid section and this admin certainly got it done with no strike ...

IIRC, most negotiations under Ford gave unions quite bit more in the form of raises than either Miller or Lastman was; particularly the big-budget labour-heavy departments like Police and TTC.

Garbage was about the only area where the local union took a hit; albeit nowhere close to offsetting the above.

Ford excelled as a salesman; if he sold something that was real he might have been truly powerful.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

There is too much fear from the inner suburbs on where the tax money will go in his City. We hear it all the time what "priority" in the City and that is a promlemtic debate in a mega City and low tax resonates with these people and not just the wealthy Tory base. Until we see better transit connections and unity which supports greater detail in projects thru out he City it will be tough to sell high taxes to support "priority" Downtown transit and other projects like rail deck park.

Except that's a false narrative - Ford went out his way to claim that you don't even need a levy that is specific to SSE and voted against it.

AoD

 

[Rainforest]

Except that's a false narrative - Ford went out his way to claim that you don't even need a levy that is specific to SSE and voted against it.

AoD

As far as I remember, in 2013 Ford hesitated whether to vote for SSE levy, but ended up voting for it.

Earlier, during the 2010 campaign and in the first half of his term, he declared the Sheppard subway can be built entirely on the private funding; that did not work.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Except these promises are mutually contradictory - recall his constant claims that you don't need to raise taxes to build subways, and how the private sector will be lining up to pay for it? It didn't turn out to be true in either case - and in some ways poisoned the well with the promise of getting something for nothing.

AoD

Build a wall and we’ll get Mexico to pay for it!

Ford said his business accumen would allow him to negotiate deals to get the private sector to pay for it. When politicians tout their business accumen, it seems be a cover for them having no plan.

the unions needed a kick in mid section and this admin certainly got it done

Ford was fantastic for the unions. Rhetoric is just rhetoric.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

There is too much fear from the inner suburbs on where the tax money will go in his City. We hear it all the time what "priority" in the City and that is a promlemtic debate in a mega City and low tax resonates with these people and not just the wealthy Tory base. Until we see better transit connections and unity which supports greater detail in projects thru out he City it will be tough to sell high taxes to support "priority" Downtown transit and other projects like rail deck park.

Funny thing is that public polling has consistently shown high support for transit taxes in the City. Our local politicians are far too timid to propose it though.

Maybe now with Ford being gone, Tory will be willing to propose such a tax. Probably not.

 

[salsa]

When politicians tout their business accumen, it seems be a cover for them having no plan.

Which is why every candidate in the PC leadership race, is tooting their business acumen.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Which is why every candidate in the PC leadership race, is tooting their business acumen.

Touting business acumen has become a worthless platitude, just like politicians shoehorning a reference about middle class families in every public statement they make.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

As far as I remember, in 2013 Ford hesitated whether to vote for SSE levy, but ended up voting for it.

Earlier, during the 2010 campaign and in the first half of his term, he declared the Sheppard subway can be built entirely on the private funding; that did not work.

Fair, he voted for it but wanted it at 0.25%

In order to extend the Bloor-Danforth subway line from Kennedy Station to Sheppard Avenue, Toronto's city manager says property taxes would have to go up at least 1.6 per cent to cover a 30-year loan.

That’s because the subway will cost at least $1.5 billion more than building light rail along the route. Council had an agreement with the province to build a light-rail line but in July opted instead for the more expensive subway option.


To help cover the difference, council approved in principle a transit tax levy of 1.1 per cent to 2.4 per cent, though Ford reportedly wanted to hold the increase to .25 per cent a year.

Much of the debate focused on a city manager’s report that explores the costs of both options, but TTC Chair Karen Stintz says going back to light rail is not an option.

“I think there is some confusion because of the way the city manager's report is written that there is actually a choice between LRT and subway when in fact the province has been clear they are building a subway," said Stintz.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/scarborough-subway-ok-d-by-city-council-1.1929463

Torontonians will have to face a 2.23 per cent property tax hike next year, as a result of a vote at city hall Wednesday night.

Councillors voted 32 -13 in favour of the hike, angering Mayor Rob Ford who promptly took to Twitter to blast the decision.

“I’m very disappointed that city council has chosen to pass a budget that will increase the average household property tax by 2.73 per cent,” he tweeted, factoring in the current market value assessment also done on properties each year. "There were a number of ways to reduce the tax burden on Toronto residents in 2014. What was missing was the will to look for savings."

The residential tax hike includes a 0.5 per cent levy to help fund a shortfall in the extension of the Bloor-Danforth subway line into Scarborough -- an extension that Ford loudly supported and voted for.

https://www.cp24.com/news/council-approves-2-23-per-cent-property-tax-hike-1.1660965

AoD

 

[OneCity]

Funny thing is that public polling has consistently shown high support for transit taxes in the City. Our local politicians are far too timid to propose it though.

Maybe now with Ford being gone, Tory will be willing to propose such a tax. Probably not.

Tory campaigned on low taxes for his rich base which was quite large, Ford campaigned on low taxes for the 2nd class suburbs also quite large. They have run away and do their own internal polling which hasn't let them down running on low taxes. Polls are beyond subjective. although my guess is its pretty close on whether residents would support a taxing candidate with a more inclusive platform in other areas.

There is a real fear from inner suburban residents that they will be taxed to fund the Downtown and I cant blame them as even on new transit some councilors want to cancel the SSE to fund the DRL, they want a fancy Downtown park built yet are still trying to uncompromisingly squeeze Scarborough into a transfer laden transit plan. Cmon. I dont think the Left can ever break Torys rich base to tax but they can be more sensitive on inner suburban issues and grow confidence but until that day happens (and it will) low taxes will continue and the City will remain volatile to the apathy vote