Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Coolstar]

It's dumb, two bus terminals both at the next major intersection from each other. Demolition of perfectly good infrastructure instead of upgrading or renovating it. Two stop subway that's like 5x the budget of perfectly good LRT technology. The whole thing doesn't make sense. Not sure what Scarborough residents or MP green light this idea but it doesn't serve the majority of Scarborough. Anyone east of mccowan road still has to travel great distances for a train.

EELRT and the Sheppard East extension is what Scarborough needs in terms of rapid transit.

Unfortunately complaining about what could've been won't bring the original plan back will it. We have to move on at this point.

 

[Aplus23]

Unfortunately complaining about what could've been won't bring the original plan back will it. We have to move on at this point.

While the rest of Scarborough suffers, smh. Shovels aren't in ground yet, why can't one of the branches of government step in and intervene?

 

[Rainforest]

It's dumb, two bus terminals both at the next major intersection from each other.

Yonge line has large bus terminals at Finch, Sheppard, and York Mills. Every 2 km.

Demolition of perfectly good infrastructure instead of upgrading or renovating it.

Dependent on how they are building the subway, it may be cheaper to replace the terminal than to re-route the subway tunnel and incur extra costs for that.

Two stop subway that's like 5x the budget of perfectly good LRT technology.

Definitely not 5x. Between 2x and 1.5x. SLRT would be a fully grade separate line, not a plain street-median light rail.

The whole thing doesn't make sense. Not sure what Scarborough residents or MP green light this idea but it doesn't serve the majority of Scarborough.

No single route would serve the majority of Scarborough, and not even a group of 2 or 3 lines would accomplish that. The subway serves a larger minority than any other option.

Anyone east of mccowan road still has to travel great distances for a train.

Almost everyone east of McCowan would have to travel same distance to the train if the light rail option was chosen, the only exception being the area around the Sheppard and Progress intersection.

The time saving coming with the extended subway shouldn't be discounted, would be about 10 min each way for the Lawrence East bus, and 10 to 15 minutes each way for buses coming from north of 401 to the Sheppard terminal.

 

[sixrings]

In all seriousness. Why not Woodside square. We need to get as many people off the yonge line as possible. Getting this to finch helps that goal. Plus Woodside has so much redevelopment potential. Isn't that what this extension all about? Helping more people get downtown, helping developers, and increasing property values.

 

[Rainforest]

In all seriousness. Why not Woodside square. We need to get as many people off the yonge line as possible. Getting this to finch helps that goal. Plus Woodside has so much redevelopment potential. Isn't that what this extension all about? Helping more people get downtown, helping developers, and increasing property values.

That's another billion to get the subway there, while the ridership will drop significantly north of Sheppard. They forecast 5,8k southbound at Sheppard during the morning peak, but unlikely to get more than ~ 3.5 k southbound at Finch, because a portion of riders boarding at Sheppard would come from the east or west rather than from the north.

I am not totally against extending the subway to Finch. But, IMO, it would preferable to extend the Finch LRT east to McCowan, and then extend it south down McCowan to connect to the subway at Sheppard.

 

[sixrings]

That's another billion to get the subway there, while the ridership will drop significantly north of Sheppard. They forecast 5,8k southbound at Sheppard during the morning peak, but unlikely to get more than ~ 3.5 k southbound at Finch, because a portion of riders boarding at Sheppard would come from the east or west rather than from the north.

I am not totally against extending the subway to Finch. But, IMO, it would preferable to extend the Finch LRT east to McCowan, and then extend it south down McCowan to connect to the subway at Sheppard.

People in Scarborough have shown they are not open to LRT though so a subway does the job and makes things easier for everyone. Then you can have BRT as the last mile and subways as your trunk. Keep LRTs in the West end, Mississauga, and Kitchener.

 

[Aplus23]

Yonge line has large bus terminals at Finch, Sheppard, and York Mills. Every 2 km.

True and that's needed so good point

Dependent on how they are building the subway, it may be cheaper to replace the terminal than to re-route the subway tunnel and incur extra costs for that.

Again, why even build a subway, ppl have a way right now to get to Kennedy Station from STC by using the dedicated track system for the SRT. If the SRT is outdated then use LRT technology on the same route.

Definitely not 5x. Between 2x and 1.5x. SLRT would be a fully grade separate line, not a plain street-median light rail.

So you agree with me that it's more expensive to achieve the same goal. So that is the part that doesn't make sense to me.

No single route would serve the majority of Scarborough, and not even a group of 2 or 3 lines would accomplish that. The subway serves a larger minority than any other option.

Do you live in Scarborough? I ask this because the EELRT would run thru Scarborough east from Kennedy Station to the Morningside area. That serves way more people than a 2 stop line from Kennedy to STC. The Sheppard East extension to Morningside would cater to a lot more people as well. How can you even debate that?

Almost everyone east of McCowan would have to travel same distance to the train if the light rail option was chosen, the only exception being the area around the Sheppard and Progress intersection.

I live at Morningside and Lawrence, the closest station to me is Kennedy subway station. That is a 45minute bus ride depending on traffic. If the EELRT was built, I would juts take that all the way to Kennedy Station instead of taking the bus and that would cut my commute time in half.

The time saving coming with the extended subway shouldn't be discounted, would be about 10 min each way for the Lawrence East bus, and 10 to 15 minutes each way for buses coming from north of 401 to the Sheppard terminal.

 

[Aplus23]

People in Scarborough have shown they are not open to LRT though so a subway does the job and makes things easier for everyone. Then you can have BRT as the last mile and subways as your trunk. Keep LRTs in the West end, Mississauga, and Kitchener.

This isn't true, we would welcome an LRT, the Scarborough public just wasn't well aware of what the technology consist of. The city did a horrible job of explaining things and still do when it comes to the LRT. All we know about is the aches n pains of the SRT right now so yeah they would rather a subway instead of the RT.

 

[sixrings]

This isn't true, we would welcome an LRT, the Scarborough public just wasn't well aware of what the technology consist of. The city did a horrible job of explaining things and still do when it comes to the LRT. All we know about is the aches n pains of the SRT right now so yeah they would rather a subway instead of the RT.

Scarborough people understand the innate dangers of having to go out in the middle of the street to get on transit, the injustice of having to wait outside in the cold while downtowners get to wait indoors, the common sense that one car hitting the lrt would shut down the entire line, and the obvious that subways create development (look at yonge and Eglinton or yonge and Sheppard) while STC is a ghost town despite decades of a RT. Finch deserves to benefit from the same thing the rest of Scarborough is benefiting from. Bring the subway to Woodside Square.

 

[Aplus23]

Scarborough people understand the innate dangers of having to go out in the middle of the street to get on transit, the injustice of having to wait outside in the cold while downtowners get to wait indoors, the common sense that one car hitting the lrt would shut down the entire line, and the obvious that subways create development (look at yonge and Eglinton or yonge and Sheppard) while STC is a ghost town despite decades of a RT. Finch deserves to benefit from the same thing the rest of Scarborough is benefiting from. Bring the subway to Woodside Square.

There isn't a finch east extension in the works and was never even discussed as far as ino. I agree Sheppard East extension should be on the table immediately.

As far as the LRT goes, ppl in Scarborough wouldn't mind it at all. The lRT would have its own dedicated lane so cars wouldn't be going on the line, that can't be your only reservation.

 

[Rainforest]

People in Scarborough have shown they are not open to LRT though so a subway does the job and makes things easier for everyone. Then you can have BRT as the last mile and subways as your trunk. Keep LRTs in the West end, Mississauga, and Kitchener.

That's an option, too. However, the public opinion changes gradually, and by the time the city gets its hands on Finch East, the public might welcome the LRT option.

By the way, noone in Scarborough objects to Eglinton East LRT. People just don't crave it as much as they crave the subway, but if the city funds Eglinton East LRT, nobody will try to block it.

 

[Rainforest]

Again, why even build a subway, ppl have a way right now to get to Kennedy Station from STC by using the dedicated track system for the SRT. If the SRT is outdated then use LRT technology on the same route.

That was a viable option. But for many residents, that means double transfers just to get to the subway at Kennedy. First, take a bus to SLRT, and then take SLRT to the subway.

Hence, the push to extend the subway, and be able to reach it in a single bus ride.

So you agree with me that it's more expensive to achieve the same goal. So that is the part that doesn't make sense to me.

Obviously, the subway is more expensive. I believe it results in a better network, thus it's not just "same" goal.

Do you live in Scarborough?

No, I live west of Yonge.

I ask this because the EELRT would run thru Scarborough east from Kennedy Station to the Morningside area. That serves way more people than a 2 stop line from Kennedy to STC. The Sheppard East extension to Morningside would cater to a lot more people as well. How can you even debate that?

Debate what? Obviously, there will be more residents within walking distance of a long LRT than within walking distance of just 2 or 3 subway stations.

However, the subway extension will help people who do not live on any of the proposed LRT routes, because their ride to the subway will be shorter. LRT, for the most part, will not help those people.

I live at Morningside and Lawrence, the closest station to me is Kennedy subway station. That is a 45minute bus ride depending on traffic. If the EELRT was built, I would juts take that all the way to Kennedy Station instead of taking the bus and that would cut my commute time in half.

EELRT is a very useful project, which would serve a busy corridor. However:

1) You can benefit either way: EELRT would accelerate your trip to Kennedy, while the subway extension will give you the option of taking the Lawrence bus to the new station at McCowan & Lawrence. The distance from McCowan to Morningside is about 4.5 km, the bus shouldn't take more than 25 min to cover that distance even when the traffic is bad. I regularly take a bus from the Steels / Dufferin area to the Finch subway station, and know how the buses operate.

2) On the other hand, someone living at say Lawrence and Markham Rd wouldn't benefit from EELRT at all. It doesn't make sense to take a bus down to Eglinton, transfer to LRT there, and then ride to Kennedy. In contrast, the subway extension will bring the connection point much closer to that person, with a less than 2 km bus ride to the subway.

3) If you want to have both the subway and EELRT, then starting with the subway kind of makes sense because the funding is harder to secure. EELRT is cheaper, this round of transit expansion isn't the last round, and you will have a good chance to obtain EELRT funding while the subway is under construction.

Now, I would have absolutely no problem if the Scarborough residents chose the LRT network over the subway extension. However, based on the multiple elections results, I conclude that the majority of the Scarborough voters either prefer the subway or don't care either way. Everyone who got elected in Scarborough to a federal, provincial, or municipal office in the last ~ 8 years, is either pro-subway or content with the subway. Noone said "let's cancel the subway and build light rail lines" and got elected.

 

[Suburban_Toronto]

That's an option, too. However, the public opinion changes gradually, and by the time the city gets its hands on Finch East, the public might welcome the LRT option.

By the way, noone in Scarborough objects to Eglinton East LRT. People just don't crave it as much as the crave the subway, but if the city funds Eglinton East LRT, nobody will try to block it.

How an average resident of Scarborough feels about public transit depends on where you live and often you use it. I lived in two different places for over 15 years and although I frequently use STC, I think the average residentwill be better served by utilizing the infrascture we already have. For example, being able to use a TTC fair to transfer between bus and go(future smart track) stations, building upon transit infrascture that utilizes investments we have already made (SRT corridor).

The business case doesn't really compare the approriate options (or any reasonable options). And to be honest Scarborough needs to push for something better than what is being given to us.

 

[Steve X]

Scarborough is too big to be classify as one group of people. I'm sure Scarborough East aren't that happy about this subway. It really doesn't help them at all.

As for people in L'Amoreaux, Agincourt or Milliken, this subway is located way too far (east) from them to make it useful.

Even with this subway built, they could still build LRTs east of Sheppard/McCowan.


We could think of this Scarborough subway as the beginning of a transit network.

Green = Line 2 (Scarborough subway)
Brown = Stouffville GO/SmartTrack
Red = Lakeshore East
Purple = Line 4 Sheppard Extension to McCowan. The worst line on this map as stations at Pharmacy, Birchmount and Midland would likely not get built.
Aqua = Sheppard East LRT. Extension to Kingston Rd to connect with the Kingston Rd BRT.
Blue = Malvern LRT, extension of the originally planned SRT into Malvern. Grade separation between STC and Malvern Town Centre, on street beyond.
Orange = EELRT. It should be split at Kennedy but just illustration I left it as part of Line 5. Could be renamed Scarborough East/Morningside LRT. It could be extended north into Malvern and Tapscott employment centre (plenty of development opportunity there).
Black = Ellesmere/Kingston Rd BRT/DRT Pulse 900 extension.

We can probably just remove the Sheppard subway extension and still have a functional network.

 

[JSF-1]

I don't see any benefit to terminating the Sheppard line at Sheppard and McCowan. STC is the main hub for Scarborough for both transit and business so any extension of the Sheppard Line must terminate at STC.