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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

jcam said:
The interesting wrinkle is that Metrolinx is going to be holding the money for the studies of both of the DRL and the Line 1 extension. It begs the question of who will 'own' those projects down the road.
Click to expand...

What has Metolinx got to do with the DRL and Line 1 extension? Both are subway projects, not in Metrolinx's vocabulary.
 
bill r said:
The subway is a City project.
The LRT is a provincial project.
No part of the the subway budget mixes with the LRT budget.
The added cost of the LRT extension is totally funded by the Province.

The City Planners accepted the Province's offer of the extended LRT.
They never explained why it was necessary to drop the two subway stations.
At all public sessions, there has always been speakers advocating for the importance of the Lawrence East subway station. No one has defended the removal of it.
The City Planners have said that SmartTrack will provide rapid transit access to the Lawrence bus riders after the SRT is removed. They never mention that SmartTrack only comes every 8.6 minutes and there could be an extra fee to ride the Metrolinx train.
Click to expand...

If you say so..
 
jcam said:
The interesting wrinkle is that Metrolinx is going to be holding the money for the studies of both of the DRL and the Line 1 extension. It begs the question of who will 'own' those projects down the road.
Click to expand...
Metrolinx, since that has been their goal from day one.
 
bill r said:
Metrolinx has no authority over subways. That's why the TTC pushes subway projects.
Click to expand...
That true at this time, but Metrolinx has try and fail once in taking over the subway systems, but their goal is to do it.

They may not stand a chance on the Danforth extension, but they will gain control on the DRL since the province calls the shots on funding.

If Toronto wants funding for transit, you play by their rules with the SRT as an example of that. Where TTC subway & Streetcars are built is another example.
 
drum118 said:
That true at this time, but Metrolinx has try and fail once in taking over the subway systems, but their goal is to do it.

They may not stand a chance on the Danforth extension, but they will gain control on the DRL since the province calls the shots on funding.

If Toronto wants funding for transit, you play by their rules with the SRT as an example of that. Where TTC subway & Streetcars are built is another example.
Click to expand...
all it takes is for the Liberals to be booted out in the election coming up. I doubt the Conservatives will be interested in owing a subway - as we know metrolinx is not independent
 
We are still a couple of years from an election, and seem unlikely to get a majority government of another (or any perhaps) ilk. The NDP seems to be in some kind of existential crisis, not knowing what type of party they are anymore. And the Tories are doubling down with another unelectable anti-gay anti-abortion social conservative who is quite willing to dance with the hardcore white-wing - which will at the best keep them out of majority territory. If Elliott had won, I'd agree with you.
 
nfitz said:
We are still a couple of years from an election, and seem unlikely to get a majority government of another (or any perhaps) ilk. The NDP seems to be in some kind of existential crisis, not knowing what type of party they are anymore. And the Tories are doubling down with another unelectable anti-gay anti-abortion social conservative who is quite willing to dance with the hardcore white-wing - which will at the best keep them out of majority territory. If Elliott had won, I'd agree with you.
Click to expand...

The Tories are doubling down on bigotry? I thought they were trying to position Brown as a centrist (even though he hasn't been historically)?
 
TheTigerMaster said:
I thought they were trying to position Brown as a centrist (even though he hasn't been historically)?
Click to expand...
They are trying to hide his history of quite extreme bigotry - but they doubled-down by choosing him in the first place. Elliott would have been a step in the right direction to move away from all that.

He didn't do anything to distance himself from the known racists in his party (such as the Fords, McNaughtons, and Hilliers), nor has moved away from socially regressive policies such as abortion, unlike even his federal counterparts. He hasn't even apologized for his past anti-gay activities.

Follow-ups should go the the political forum - I don't think anyone wants to hear a discussion of whether trying to hide the heritage of hatred rather than step away from it is the right approach to gain power.
 
So I was reading this this morning:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...mprovements-over-three-years/article30482822/

Mayors across the country were thrilled when the new government announced in its February budget that it would provide 50 per cent for transit infrastructure. That is significantly more than the one-third that previous federal regimes had given.
Click to expand...

We've been debating on the old funding model. With the new model, the Feds should pay for half the cost once it's shovel ready, what's more likely to happen knowing that the Province will invest $1.5B in a subway no matter what the city says or decides?

*Can someone helps me with the math if I'm wrong?*

Funding under Harper Government

Old option A from Queen's Park: 3 stop subway at $3.56B
  • $660M Ottawa
  • $1.5B province
  • $1B to $1.4B city (tax levy which council passed)
Old option B from Queen's Park: 2 stop subway if city refused to pay
  • $660M Ottawa
  • $1.5B province

Funding under Trudeau Government

Old option A from Queen's Park: 3 stop subway at $3.56B
  • $1.78B from the feds
  • $1.5B province
  • 280M$ city (originally on the hook for $1B)

Old option B from Queen's Park: If the city refuse to pay, it's 2 stop subway, assuming the province stay put at $1.5B, the Feds would match with $1.5B. What does $3B gets you? However, the province was adamant with spending $1.5B on subway, this makes me think that if the Feds does pay 50% of that extension, Queen's Park could increase it's funding so that Ottawa would match the extra cost of Lawrence East.


New Scarborough plan:
1 stop Subway at $2.5B
  • $1.25B Feds
  • $1.25B province

Crosstown East ($1B):

  • 50% Fed ($500M)
  • 25% province ($250M)
  • 25% City($250M originally on the hook for $1.4B)

Assuming that the province plans on asking Ottawa 50% for the subway and Crosstown East, is there a possibility of a 3 stop subway + Crosstown East?
  • The city already pass the tax levy for the subway and (correct me if I'm wrong) already collecting it.
  • Smarttrack East north of Kennedy would have to be dropped so the extension is viable in term of ridership
  • Politically, that would satisfy all parties.

Province submitting 3 stop subway + Crosstown East to Ottawa for funding and dropping Smarttrack East to fix the ridership issue

3 stop subway + Crosstown East (let's use 5 billion)
  • $2.5B from the feds
  • $1.5B province
  • $1B $ city (Same amount the tax levy is supposed to finance)

My analysis, Smarttrack cannibalizing the ridership is a huge problem and the Lawrence & Ellesmere stations needs to get cancelled to get the previous ridership back justifying its construction. Under the current proposal, Scarborough, north of the 401, is shamelessly underserved and cut off from rapid transit while turning the 1 stop subway into another overkill project. With the province being adamant on subway technology, how do we fix this? My model above shows that for the same costs for both the city and province, a viable 3 stop subway along with Crosstown East is in fact possible thanks to the Trudeau Government willingness to pay for 50% of the overall project.

It’s a win for all parties:
  • the subway can be built without the SRT being shutdown
  • the subway would reach Sheppard Avenue East
  • If Smarttrack station gets cancelled, the previous ridership would be back justifying the subway extension
  • The city would collect it’s tax levy as usual
  • No extra cost for the province
  • The Federal government would just cover the extra construction cost (and they seem happy to do so)
  • End of the Scarborough debate and political farce…until Sheppard East comes up.
Please comment and help me fix it, debunk it, challenge it as I want to send it to both City Councillors and MPPs
 
Last edited:
Cobra said:
So I was reading this this morning:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...mprovements-over-three-years/article30482822/



We've been debating on the old funding model. With the new model, the Feds should pay for half the cost once it's shovel ready, what's more likely to happen knowing that the Province will invest $1.5B in a subway no matter what the city says or decides?

*Can someone helps me with the math if I'm wrong?*

Funding under Harper Government

Old option A from Queen's Park: 3 stop subway at $3.56B
  • $660M Ottawa
  • $1.5B province
  • $1B to $1.4B city (tax levy which council passed)
Old option B from Queen's Park: 2 stop subway if city refused to pay
  • $660M Ottawa
  • $1.5B province

Funding under Trudeau Government

Old option A from Queen's Park: 3 stop subway at $3.56B
  • $1.78B from the feds
  • $1.5B province
  • 280M$ city (originally on the hook for $1B)

Old option B from Queen's Park: If the city refuse to pay, it's 2 stop subway, assuming the province stay put at $1.5B, the Feds would match with $1.5B. What does $3B gets you? However, the province was adamant with spending $1.5B on subway, this makes me think that if the Feds does pay 50% of that extension, Queen's Park could increase it's funding so that Ottawa would match the extra cost of Lawrence East.


New Scarborough plan:
1 stop Subway at $2.5B
  • $1.25B Feds
  • $1.25B province

Crosstown East ($1B):

  • 50% Fed ($500M)
  • 25% province ($250M)
  • 25% City($250M originally on the hook for $1.4B)

Assuming that the province plans on asking Ottawa 50% for the subway and Crosstown East, is there a possibility of a 3 stop subway + Crosstown East?
  • The city already pass the tax levy for the subway and (correct me if I'm wrong) already collecting it.
  • Smarttrack East north of Kennedy would have to be dropped so the extension is viable in term of ridership
  • Politically, that would satisfy all parties.

Province submitting 3 stop subway + Crosstown East to Ottawa for funding and dropping Smarttrack East to fix the ridership issue

3 stop subway + Crosstown East (let's use 5 billion)
  • $2.5B from the feds
  • $1.5B province
  • $1B $ city (Same amount the tax levy is supposed to finance)

My analysis, Smarttrack cannibalizing the ridership is a huge problem and the Lawrence & Ellesmere stations needs to get cancelled to get the previous ridership back justifying its construction. Under the current proposal, Scarborough, north of the 401, is shamelessly underserved and cut off from rapid transit while turning the 1 stop subway into another overkill project. With the province being adamant on subway technology, how do we fix this? My model above shows that for the same costs for both the city and province, a viable 3 stop subway along with Crosstown East is in fact possible thanks to the Trudeau Government willingness to pay for 50% of the overall project.

It’s a win for all parties:
  • the subway can be built without the SRT being shutdown
  • the subway would reach Sheppard Avenue East
  • If Smarttrack station gets cancelled, the previous ridership would be back justifying the subway extension
  • The city would collect it’s tax levy as usual
  • No extra cost for the province
  • The Federal government would just cover the extra construction cost (and they seem happy to do so)
  • End of the Scarborough debate and political farce…until Sheppard East comes up.
Please comment and help me fix it, debunk it, challenge it as I want to send it to both City Councillors and MPPs
Click to expand...


Reasonable plan....
But as you mention there are 2 hindering factors. Smarttrack & Sheppard.
1. Smarttrack -although I could see them remove the stop on Lawrence I believe it will go ahead in some form.
2. Sheppard and Malvern. - Needs to be addressed in a timely manner. Instead of extending the SSE to Sheppard. They could add 2 LRT routes. One to Malvern TC & the other from the zoo to the Stubway.

Or.

More expensive but a proper design would be:
In addition to the 2 stop Subway & Eglinton LRT extension connect the current Sheppard stubway to STC connection having Kennedy join STC, then have a LRT extended as a loop from UTSC Kennedy.

But we just gotta start NOW the SSE & Eglinton extension is a great starting point while Politicians run amuck of planning the rest of the City. This City is soooo far behind. Let's go
 
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/06/16/putting-scarborough-subway-claims-to-the-test.html

A perfect article from The Star that explains Tory and Jennifer Keesmaat's BS facts. Tory and Keesmaat pulled such a stupid move by saying the Scarborough Subway justifies cause Kipling to Islington has only 7,300 riders in peak direction. The article does a good job saying it's only 1km oppose to a 6km route that cost very low. Kipling to Islington can be built for $100m today while this extension cost 30 times as much to carry the same amount of riders. That number will rise when Miway moves to Kipling, a fact Tory, Keesmaat and the article missed. Plus Kipling to Islington is technically not a subway cause it's on the surface.

Tory says Scarborough is the only place in the city that doesn't have a subway. This clown clear doesn't know TO well. There are many place with city boundary that doesn't have subway and STC has the SRT. This article clearly illustrates how Tory and Keesmaat are totally bias.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
On this day, 35 years ago: Toronto Transit Commission decides to scrap plans for its new Scarborough LRT line and adopt a different technology, against expert advice and under pressure from the Government of Ontario
Click to expand...

Does anyone understand why in the 1980s they chose not to extend Line 2 north on the surface in the SRT corridor to Scarborough Centre? Kennedy Station was still being designed back then, and to me it seem like it would have been as cheap or cheaper than the proposed LRT back in the day.
 
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