Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Steve X]

No. the $3.56 was City Council subway only!
Metrolinx (Duguid) is building the Eglinton LRT at $1.46 billion. nothing to do with subway.
They eliminated the Lawrence East subway from SSE to divert city money to build the extended LRT.

Recall in Aug-Nov 2014 two lanes of Eglinton from Midland to Brimley were removed for watermain refurbishment. The diversion of cars to caused major congestion on Lawrence and St. Clair.
The Eglinton LRT reduces Eglinton to 4 lanes and removes most left hand turns. All three roads Lawrence, Eglinton and St. Clair will be congested.

The extended LRT reduces Kingston Road to 4 lanes.
With added traffic congestion, Scarborough will take an economic hit, no economic benefit.

You know who's going to take a hit when Scarborough's population doubles? Everyone as traffic lanes are filled with cars and buses.
Are you aware that the HOV lane on Eglinton are occupied by buses in rush hour that will no longer be there when the LRT opens? Buses were caught in the watermain project which made traffic worst. Transit projects like Eglinton LRT would bring many development along the corridor. I consider that economical benefit.

 

[coffey1]

No. the $3.56 was City Council subway only!
Metrolinx (Duguid) is building the Eglinton LRT at $1.46 billion. nothing to do with subway.
They eliminated the Lawrence East subway from SSE to divert city money to build the extended LRT.

Recall in Aug-Nov 2014 two lanes of Eglinton from Midland to Brimley were removed for watermain refurbishment. The diversion of cars to caused major congestion on Lawrence and St. Clair.
The Eglinton LRT reduces Eglinton to 4 lanes and removes most left hand turns. All three roads Lawrence, Eglinton and St. Clair will be congested.

The extended LRT reduces Kingston Road to 4 lanes.
With added traffic congestion, Scarborough will take an economic hit, no economic benefit.

While Id have to agree that a proper design shall involve keeping the same number of lanes currently. I would argue there is much more economic impact not building the LRT.

Scarborough took an economic hit when they refused to build the "Scarborough expressway". Aside from Scarborough being an easy target politically to do nothing but dangle projects one of main justifications for not moving forward was that Toronto's was moving forward with a vision of a less car centric City and more public transit in the future. Well here we are. All I ask is that we build a well integrated & fair network into the existing system.

There is no way in this Political climate that the Left will ever help pay for extensive Scarborough transit be built underground of fully elevated. So again while its likely the right thing to do its not worth debating as the Left have a big enough problem connecting Scarborough on the same infrastructure technology currently existing in this City. If the surface LRT plan causes traffic chaos we'll be digging or elevating 50-100 years from now but at that point it will be clear or we will adapt.

Scarborough has become stagnant from lack of government vision, planning will & investment to revitalize many areas. We cant afford not to invest and build quality public transit in Scarborough.

 

[pman]

While Id have to agree that a proper design shall involve keeping the same number of lanes currently. I would argue there is much more economic impact not building the LRT.

Scarborough took an economic hit when they refused to build the "Scarborough expressway". Aside from Scarborough being an easy target politically to do nothing but dangle projects one of main justifications for not moving forward was that Toronto's was moving forward with a vision of a less car centric City and more public transit in the future. Well here we are. All I ask is that we build a well integrated & fair network into the existing system.

There is no way in this Political climate that the Left will ever help pay for extensive Scarborough transit be built underground of fully elevated. So again while its likely the right thing to do its not worth debating as the Left have a big enough problem connecting Scarborough on the same infrastructure technology currently existing in this City. If the surface LRT plan causes traffic chaos we'll be digging or elevating 50-100 years from now but at that point it will be clear or we will adapt.

Scarborough has become stagnant from lack of government vision, planning will & investment to revitalize many areas. We cant afford not to invest and build quality public transit in Scarborough.

This is a nice encapsulation of the ideas that have driven so much of transit mis-planning in Toronto. Casting transit choices as a matter of "left" vs presumably right. "Fairness" which isn't clearly defined but clearly implies building sub-surface heavy rail to low-density suburban areas that can't possibly generate enough ridership to ever make the projects economic. Predictions that taking two lanes from a massively wide suburban street will cause "traffic chaos" because after all no drivers will ever switch to a hated LRT. The rejection of the notion that with our finite amount of money for transit construction and operation, we should make investments based on moving the largest number of people for the buck. We can't go on with this level of Ford Nation idiocy and pandering to the feelings of grievance and entitlement voiced by some Scarborough residents and politicians. Or maybe we can in which case I wish all those Scarborough subway commuters a pleasant sojourn at the Yonge-Bloor station when they attempt to change lines to get to and from downtown. But on the plus side, the demand modelling shows there won't be that many Scarborough subway commuters so that's all good then, except for the couple of billion dollars we will have flushed down the drain.

 

[bill r]

Scarborough Eglinton LRT
The expediant solution is to put the LRT underground, just like through Leaside.
Victoria Park to Kennedy is really short.
Metrolinx said last September that there was a $2 billion surplus in the Crosstown project.
Metrolinx is well aware of the congestion problem. In 2013, their own consultant publicly suggested using Civic Road as a "relief" line. City planners declined to use the surplus to bury the LRT. Metrolinx has cover because they will say the City refused to bury it.

BTW does anyone know the ridership numbers for the LRT in Scarborough, things like the business case, riders, capital costs and operation costs?

 

[coffey1]

This is a nice encapsulation of the ideas that have driven so much of transit mis-planning in Toronto. Casting transit choices as a matter of "left" vs presumably right. "Fairness" which isn't clearly defined but clearly implies building sub-surface heavy rail to low-density suburban areas that can't possibly generate enough ridership to ever make the projects economic. Predictions that taking two lanes from a massively wide suburban street will cause "traffic chaos" because after all no drivers will ever switch to a hated LRT. The rejection of the notion that with our finite amount of money for transit construction and operation, we should make investments based on moving the largest number of people for the buck. We can't go on with this level of Ford Nation idiocy and pandering to the feelings of grievance and entitlement voiced by some Scarborough residents and politicians. Or maybe we can in which case I wish all those Scarborough subway commuters a pleasant sojourn at the Yonge-Bloor station when they attempt to change lines to get to and from downtown. But on the plus side, the demand modelling shows there won't be that many Scarborough subway commuters so that's all good then, except for the couple of billion dollars we will have flushed down the drain.

Actually its the cost building to connect Scarborough to what exists elsewhere in this City. Surely we need local network too. But past neglect doesn't mean rush with cheap alternatives. If anyone is irresponsible it the Province who could be building rapid BUS instead of fancy LRT's as an efficient local network. But that wouldn't alleviate Toronto from taking the City's main transit backbone to Scarborough Center

As soon as the "haves" hear its time for investment in Scarborough they get frugal, change colors and become staunch conservative and want to take the cheapest route. Enough is enough. I really hope those fluctuating models (still politically motivates) take into account how many commuters avoid the RT like the plague. Only the ones that have to cram into the rickety ol'transfer hop in

 

[bill r]

The LRT lanes will move far more people than the car lanes ever did.

What are the ridership numbers for the LRT?
For those in Scarborough trying to get downtown, the LRT merely takes them to the Kennedy Station.
Just another leg in the trip, line up and wait for LRT, mount and dismount, line up and wait for Bloor subway mount and dismount, line up and wait for Yonge subway.

An true rapid transit SmartTrack using EMU's takes you downtown in two steps. Bus to SmartTrack, SmartTrack to downtown.
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/transit-fantasy-maps.3005/page-292#post-1109076

 

[Edward Skira]

The 905 Cities have invested heavily within to beautify offer tax breaks to attract business & revitalize old areas with quality projects. Scarborough has been mired by lack of Political leadership & proper investment since amalgamation. But Scarborough Center has something all those Cities don't.. Proximity to downtown Toronto. And if integrated properly into its own City it will be an easy sell.

Developers are not in a rush to build at Scarborough Centre today for one main reason. They can't make the same kind of profit they can make closer to the core. Construction costs are pretty much the same downtown as they are at STC but the selling price for condos is much higher downtown hence bigger profits. That's the same issue for office development. A subway stop on its own is not going to change that. Until unit prices rise in Scarborough rise don't expect much new development.

 

[Filip]

Developers are not in a rush to build at Scarborough Centre today for one main reason. They can't make the same kind of profit they can make closer to the core. Construction costs are pretty much the same downtown as they are at STC but the selling price for condos is much higher downtown hence bigger profits. That's the same issue for office development. A subway stop on its own is not going to change that. Until unit prices rise in Scarborough rise don't expect much new development.

Moreover STC is about as close to the core as MCC.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

What are the ridership numbers for the LRT?
For those in Scarborough trying to get downtown, the LRT merely takes them to the Kennedy Station.
Just another leg in the trip, line up and wait for LRT, mount and dismount, line up and wait for Bloor subway mount and dismount, line up and wait for Yonge subway.

An true rapid transit SmartTrack using EMU's takes you downtown in two steps. Bus to SmartTrack, SmartTrack to downtown.
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/transit-fantasy-maps.3005/page-292#post-1109076

About 5200 people will use Crosstown East at its busiest point in AM peak hour; that's higher ridership than the Sheppard Subway, and nearly as high as the Scarborough RT. Crosstown East will also move more than twice as many people as ALL of SmartTrack.

 

[innsertnamehere]

My understanding was that Sheppard was in the range of 5,000 pphd in peak hours, no?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

My understanding was that Sheppard was in the range of 5,000 pphd in peak hours, no?

Sheppard Subway moved about 4,500. Crosstown East will move nearly 1000 more people at peak point/hour.

https://swanboatsteve.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/201103transittechnologytable.pdf

 

[bill r]

Sheppard Subway moved about 4,500. Crosstown East will move nearly 1000 more people at peak point/hour.

https://swanboatsteve.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/201103transittechnologytable.pdf

I'll rain on your parade.
Those numbers refer to the Sheppard subway line.
If you compare the actual Sheppard subway line numbers, the discrepancy is apparent.
Let's look at the Metrolinx ridership for the Crosstown LRT Victoria Park to Kennedy.

 

[coffey1]

Developers are not in a rush to build at Scarborough Centre today for one main reason. They can't make the same kind of profit they can make closer to the core. Construction costs are pretty much the same downtown as they are at STC but the selling price for condos is much higher downtown hence bigger profits. That's the same issue for office development. A subway stop on its own is not going to change that. Until unit prices rise in Scarborough rise don't expect much new development.

Downtown Toronto will always be the Golden egg. Especially in areas around the SUBWAY. But its not a reasonable comparable to Scarborough in any way shape or form.

North York is a proper comparable in that it's a suburb connected by the subway & it's doing quite well around these stops. Have you not seen the marketing adds for their condos - SUBWAY? If It wasn't for the Subway stops we would not see these developers. The developers around STC are already in place & they are ready to cash in when the subway comes. If you don't think the subway is a major real-estate marketing tool in the inner suburbs you will be in for a surprise.

"Until unit prices rise in Scarborough rise don't expect much new development" Ive got a proven solution for that.... a SUBWAY. Lets stop picking winners and losers in this City and build Inner suburban centers in a fair manner. Especially to the most important location in Toronto's biggest suburb that has been massively neglected on so many levels. The subway is just one piece.

Keep in mind this is just STC (and Lawrence) im advocating for in terms of subway. The local feeder network will also begin to flourish compared to where we are today with an effective LRT loop.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Must not forget the NIMBYs in Scarborough who would rise up to protest any or all high-rise developments of any kind. They may not want some 25-stories building in the next block to their single-story bungalows. Even though for a high-capacity subway, they need them.

 

[coffey1]

Must not forget the NIMBYs in Scarborough who would rise up to protest any or all high-rise developments of any kind. They may not want some 25-stories building in the next block to their single-story bungalows. Even though for a high-capacity subway, they need them.

The real NIMBY problem is people like you who fight to and rise up & protest fair investment in Toronto's neglected suburbs. This nonsense has gone beyond absurd and does nothing to help this City grow.

Your point is completely irrelevant regarding STC? Have you ever even looked around the corner for from most subway current stops? ... Many are surrounded by bungalows (or recently torn down ones for a taller detached home) and other regular detached housing. The surrounding area around STC is actually easier to develop than most of the current subway stops outside of downtown & no one is even complaining about high rise development.

This really doesn't even make sense and adds nothing but continue to troll the debate with divisive jargon.