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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

The debate around subways is collapsing back into the madness that kept anything much from happening in the last 25 years. Metrolinx was created to put the planning process above the level of parochial shouting and grabbing. But the liberals keep making it clear that they are every bit as willing as Toronto city council to play the game, and over just a few days it's starting to seem sensible to pay an extra billion dollars to spare some people a transfer. With most of the "big move" unfunded, for anyone to even be talking about a fool's errand like a subway to Sherway Gardens is disheartening. There are no relatively low costs here, just high ones and very high ones. If someone doesn't bring it back down to earth soon, Toronto will be back to 1995 in no time.
 
CapitalSeven said:
The debate around subways is collapsing back into the madness that kept anything much from happening in the last 25 years. Metrolinx was created to put the planning process above the level of parochial shouting and grabbing. But the liberals keep making it clear that they are every bit as willing as Toronto city council to play the game, and over just a few days it's starting to seem sensible to pay an extra billion dollars to spare some people a transfer. With most of the "big move" unfunded, for anyone to even be talking about a fool's errand like a subway to Sherway Gardens is disheartening. There are no relatively low costs here, just high ones and very high ones. If someone doesn't bring it back down to earth soon, Toronto will be back to 1995 in no time.
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Well, it should be noted that the provincial government in the 90s actually came up with the money. However, the Conservatives in 95 cancelled the funds after it was all approved. The difference now is that the provincial Conservatives actually support subways too.

Whether it all makes sense in terms of cost, ridership, and priorities, is a different set of questions.
 
Rainforest said:
Another interesting possibility is Kennedy LRT. That will be feasible if the Danforth subway extension is selected, and takes the McCowan route rather than the existing SRT path.

Then, the former SRT guideway from Kennedy to Ellesmere can be used for the new Kennedy LRT. At Ellesmere or at Progress, the LRT will tilt west and switch to Kennedy proper, continuing up to Steeles and possibly going into Markham at a later date.

Advantages:
1) Rail service to the Lawrence East cluster is retained.
2) The line will serve Kennedy Commons, Agincourt Mall, and Pacific Mall at Steeles. Hopefully, that will ensure robust ridership counts.
3) It should not be very costly to build. Almost all new tracks will be in street median, and no need to cross the Uxbridge mainline.
4) Such a line will create a network connection between the E-W light rail lines: Eglinton, Sheppard East, and potentially Finch East.
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Interesting idea, but I'd much rather see that corridor provided service via a GO REX arrangement as opposed to an LRT, especially considering that the cost of building one or the other would be in the same ballpark. From a long-range network perspective, the GO REX option is the better bang for the buck.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
I was thinking Warden and Islington or Martin Grove out west but this is good. We can really cut down on peoples commutes here.
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In the east end, I am not sure whether Warden or Kennedy is a better choice (based on ridership or growth potential). But in the configuration that will exist if the subway is extended via McCowan route, Kennedy LRT will be easier to build than Warden LRT. Kennedy will need only 6 km (Ellesmere to Steeles) of new ROW, and reuse the existing ROW south of Ellesmere. For Warden, 12 km of new ROW (St Clair East to Steeles) will be needed.

In the west end: yes, Islington is a good candidate, another option is Kipling (but not Martin Grove that has less ridership and a long section with no density in the middle).

gweed123 said:
Interesting idea, but I'd much rather see that corridor provided service via a GO REX arrangement as opposed to an LRT, especially considering that the cost of building one or the other would be in the same ballpark. From a long-range network perspective, the GO REX option is the better bang for the buck.
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Strategically speaking, you are right. GO REX will do more to improve commutes, grow the ridership counts, and relief the downtown subway sections.

But, GO REX on Uxbridge sub depends on the Union hub capacity upgrades, and Uxbridge does not seem to be a Metrolinx priority; Lakeshore W and E plus Brampton - Georgetown are priorities. It is hard to say when Metrolinx gets to upgrade Uxbridge sub service to anything better than half-hourly frequency.

In contrast, the LRT that I mentioned can be built locally, and has no external dependencies other than funding.
 
Rainforest said:
Strategically speaking, you are right. GO REX will do more to improve commutes, grow the ridership counts, and relief the downtown subway sections.

But, GO REX on Uxbridge sub depends on the Union hub capacity upgrades, and Uxbridge does not seem to be a Metrolinx priority; Lakeshore W and E plus Brampton - Georgetown are priorities. It is hard to say when Metrolinx gets to upgrade Uxbridge sub service to anything better than half-hourly frequency.

In contrast, the LRT that I mentioned can be built locally, and has no external dependencies other than funding.
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As we've seen recently, at the end of the day it's politics that drives transit planning. What we really need is Scarborough/Toronto AND Markham/YR councillors and MPPs arguing that a Brampton-Markham GO REX (specifically the Markham part) be the top priority for the mideastern GTA, after the B-D subway extension and the SELRT. When you look at the Next Wave, Durham gets a BRT, but Scarborough and Markham get nothing new. Hopefully some targeted lobbying can get that onto the radar.
 
Reading Glen Murray's tweets this afternoon was interesting. I can infer two things:

1. It reads like he's never visited the area before which is just sad.

2. He will not support a subway.
 
Rainforest said:
In the east end, I am not sure whether Warden or Kennedy is a better choice (based on ridership or growth potential). But in the configuration that will exist if the subway is extended via McCowan route, Kennedy LRT will be easier to build than Warden LRT. Kennedy will need only 6 km (Ellesmere to Steeles) of new ROW, and reuse the existing ROW south of Ellesmere. For Warden, 12 km of new ROW (St Clair East to Steeles) will be needed.

In the west end: yes, Islington is a good candidate, another option is Kipling (but not Martin Grove that has less ridership and a long section with no density in the middle).
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That is a good point, the LRT will be longer. But for me, I would like and LRT that covers as much of western Scarborough as possible, so people only have to use the subway if their running late. Something will also have to be done and about Morningside Heights, Malvern and UTSC.

For Etobicoke, I though MG would be good but then Islington made more sense. But won't people want that to be a subway at some point?
 
datamouse said:
Reading Glen Murray's tweets this afternoon was interesting. I can infer two things:

1. It reads like he's never visited the area before which is just sad.

2. He will not support a subway.
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1) He visited the area today, which is promising.
2) How so?

When I see these quotes:
The big challenge for making transit work in Scarborough is not transit technology it is urban design, density and land use.
Clear a transit solution for Scarborough is about a lot more than vehicle technology. The larger issues r planning & economic development.
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It sounds like he's avoiding a position on the technology.

In fact, many of the tweets seem to indicate that he now understands how the existing alignment is very hostile to transit.
 
There was also a lot of talk about how empty he found the area. He's said in the past week that funding alone won't make him support a subway - the area needs to be built up more.
I also find it odd that he tweets "the density ends here" and posts a pic of Albert Cambell Square which is almost in the middle of the area.
 
wouldn't Kipling with a LRT be more useful than Islington simply because of the new bus terminal at Kipling being built and Humber college on the waterfront?
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Kipling LRT? Overkill. I'd support a BRT but not an LRT. If we need a north-south LRT, it should be on Jane.
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I agree that LRT would be overkill. If there should be any BRT in the west end, it should be a Brown's Line/West Mall BRT from Long Branch to Renforth Gateway, Pearson, and up Highway 27 to Humber College.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
That is a good point, the LRT will be longer. But for me, I would like and LRT that covers as much of western Scarborough as possible, so people only have to use the subway if their running late. Something will also have to be done and about Morningside Heights, Malvern and UTSC.

For Etobicoke, I though MG would be good but then Islington made more sense. But won't people want that to be a subway at some point?
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All you have on Islington are houses at least south of Eglinton. Putting an LRR on a street with houses does not make sense. And a subway makes even less sense. Of course with subways comes development and people will fight that
 
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