Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Cobra]

Just move STC to the TTC parking lots at Kennedy and Eglinton and be done with it. Then the area would have a GO stop, Subway Stop, and a LRT. I cant imagine it would cost 3 billion to build a mall, and some offices. (Yorkdales latest expansion cost 331 million)

STC has poor street layout, land allocation...etc. It's just a mess. They are next to the 401 just like Yorkdale and look at the condo development coming to that area with the subway facilitating the access to the mall. I don't see why it can't be replicated at STC

 

[sixrings]

STC has poor street layout, land allocation...etc. It's just a mess. They are next to the 401 just like Yorkdale and look at the condo development coming to that area with the subway facilitating the access to the mall. I don't see why it can't be replicated at STC

So youd rather potentially have one subway versus a LRT/GO Train/Subway?.... Ok So it isnt all about transit then is it...

 

[WislaHD]

And neglect has nothing to do with it? Keesmaat must be the first city planner looking at STC since Scarborough joined Toronto. She pointed out all of STC flaws and gave a preview of solutions to make it a desirable location.

Scarborough is Toronto, when something doen't work, you FIX IT, not just call it "terrible". Brooklyn, Bronx and Harlem used to be "terrible" until they got a look at and now they are gentrifying and improving.

Sorry to take your comment so negatively, but just sitting and saying STC is a terrible location is counter-productive.

Yet, it doesn't make it untrue. Nor does it make the subway plan any less of a giant pit of money.

It is not just the poor street grid we are talking about here. It is the sheer distance away from anything else. You reference Yorkdale, well Yorkdale is still just a 20 minute subway ride to downtown. Even with the one-stop subway, Scarborough Town Centre is still over an hour away from downtown. In this discussion, we forget that Scarborough Town Centre is as far away from downtown as Square 1, Mississauga.

 

[Cobra]

So youd rather potentially have one subway versus a LRT/GO Train/Subway?.... Ok So it isnt all about transit then is it...

I don't know why you're trying to pull me into a subway vs (LRT/GO/Subway) debate. The subway is happening. I said many times that I don't like the 1 stop plan, I prefer 3 stop plan and elevated as much as possible.

The bottom line is STC needs rapid transit and no one wants an SRT shutdown. It is what it is. I'm trying to steer the conversation in making the most of an not ideal situation, not going back to old fights. If a subway is happening at STC, then completely revamping the area to attract more residents, condo towers, higher density and commercial opportunity makes sense

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I don't know why you're trying to pull me into a subway vs (LRT/GO/Subway) debate. The subway is happening. I said many times that I don't like the 1 stop plan, I prefer 3 stop plan and elevated as much as possible.

The bottom line is STC needs rapid transit and no one wants an SRT shutdown. It is what it is. I'm trying to steer the conversation in making the most of an not ideal situation, not going back to old fights. If a subway is happening at STC, then completely revamping the area to attract more residents, condo towers, higher density and commercial opportunity makes sense

The bottom line no decision makers are willing to discuss whether the bottom line makes sense in this instance - and this has locked the city into making a multi-billion, one stop subway extension. It's really not about whether LRT is the right choice anymore, that's yesterday's fight - the question out there now is what can be done to bring the cost back down from the stratosphere for what the line offers.

AoD

 

[sixrings]

Until the shovels go in the ground and until the project gets beyond cancelling no one actually knows if it is happening. I would like to live in a world where projects were never cancelled. Eglinton would have been done forever ago. The SRT would have been expanded. Sheppard would have been finished. TC would be wrapping up. Smart Track might actually happen. But that is not the world we live in. Things get cancelled all the time. If up until recently we were capable of knowingly canceling a 1 billion dollar gas plant we can surely cancel this project. Im not saying we should but I am saying it can happen. Personally as someone who grew up in Scarborough(midland and Finch) I was never attached to STC and would have been content with it relocating either here or where Agincourt mall is. I dont know what the fuss is over something that has had such a terrible history.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Again make your point without the personal attack. I truly don't hate anyone at all. I am frustrated by the Politics in this City and Province, frustrated that we have to have a blanket technology debate to address the transit needs in Scarborough. But sorry no hate.

Scarborough Center is not low density. Actually there is more low density surrounding the majority of the existing subway locations in this City. We are talking about Scarborugh Centre. Not a High Park, York Mills, Bessarian, Donlands or Vaughan Metro or the many, many other low rise stops. We are talking about the City Centre of a Toronto suburb of 700,000 that is not connected to its main transit infrastructure of its own City.

Its beyond justified. Maybe the route and lack of stops is not justified, but that's about it and that hasn't been what the fight is about.

Im not even a fan of the one stop route or location if you actually read my posts. But at this point ill take it as I know it solves one major problem in the bigger picture, and it is more of a starting point than a finish line as some try to make it out. We need to move forward.

You can continue to call names ("paranoia"....), use exaggerations to distort or discredit my views, but you cant ignore that we keep seeing the same polarizing election every 4 years that isn't going away and certainly doesn't align with a certain media message being portrayed. So maybe, just maybe its not that crazy there are tons of voices not being listened to or discussed in a fair manner in this City.

And If anything it's love not hate. I want to see a united City, bridges built, and a sufficient capital funding plan to cover not only todays needs throughout but future needs so the next generation in this City does not have to replay the Politics of today.

I understand what your argument you try to make. But obviously disagree.

While few parts of Scarborough and the existing commuters may benefit from the DRL, Scarborough doesn't receive much the benefit that a subway brings. Scarborough Centre's futre is a big issue here and will not be very attractive compared to Islington/Kipling, North York Center, and then Don Mills and Sheppard. Integrating our largest suburb on the same technology as the rest of the City is very important.

There are three main issues which all need to be addressed for Scarborough. 1. Need for a better connection to the City 2. Need for better local transit, 3. Respectful design based on what exists to attract investment to the City Centre

We can cut corners out because other areas of the City can find way to say its "not necessary" But Scarborough is fully aware of the same unnecessary system that has was built in many other area throughout the City and now creeping into the 905. And you ask these people to turn a blind eye as to why investment is so low compared to these other areas.

Our Politics are reflecting this.

It's not Scarborough'd fault we are going backwards to lay the proper foundation. I'll be happy to be dead and knowing the next generation has a great connection to it City and a good local network.

The SLRT is really over rated as its shortcomings In stop locations and transfer prior to STC negate much of the benefit of the extension. A subway could basically do a similar path and be much more effective.

Scarborough has a high enough population for rapid transit. It is however not dense enough for an underground subway on it's own right.

Therefore, it would need to somehow have feeder bus routes connecting to a rapid transit - that should be above-ground in the first place - in order to justify rapid transit. However, Scarborough's road network is terrible for feeder bus routes around Scarborough Town Centre - which we must connect to rapid transit because screw the rest of Scarborough's needs I guess?

The issue was never Scarborough, it was always Scarborough Town Centre.

Ironically, everything could be solved by a DRL Long to Finch, and most of Scarborough could have an easy feeder-route connection on any of Scarborough's east-west arterials to Don Mills, and then a super fast and direct route to the heart of downtown. But no, instead we are going to force all of Scarborough into a forced crappy feeder-connection to STC only for them to endure a longer subway commute on Danforth, before finally meeting the laughibly over-capacity interchange at Bloor-Yonge.

That's pretty much what Scarborough is fighting for. Those investors wouldn't be in Vaughan if it wasn't the high level of transit infrastructure to invest around.

But the point he was making is that there is a lack of density. Which is true. Scarborough was supposed to get the LRT that woulld connect to Eglinton w/o transfer... which would have solved the problem and then that was canceled. Bloor won't the main artery after the DRL and Eglinton go online, so I don't see why that is such a big deal. Also people want to live in Vaughan, Richmond Hill, Burlington, Whitby, etc. A subway is not going to solve all the problems.

That said, I support both Sheppard East and Scarborough now because we need to end to this debate, we need to complete the grid, and make the transit map look nice. Having stubs everywhere is a huge problem. Plus these subway plus the Finch West LRT will make it much easier to get around the city, with multiple transfer points.

Just wanted to point out that STC Subway had the ridership for subway when it was the 3 stop plan. When Tory removed Sheppard and Lawrence while adding Smartrack, the ridership dropped, (which is normal without Sheppard-McCowan)

That being said, I'm still of the opinion that elevating the line to STC should have been the preferred choice. This underground fetish in Toronto must stop.

There's no in between in this damn city. It's either at grade through traffic lights (Transit City) or underground. Elevated rapid transit or/and underpass at major intersection being thrown out is why we're in this mess

Agreed. Nothing wrong with elevated subways. Should have been done years ago.

 

[Cobra]

Yet, it doesn't make it untrue. Nor does it make the subway plan any less of a giant pit of money.

It is not just the poor street grid we are talking about here. It is the sheer distance away from anything else. You reference Yorkdale, well Yorkdale is still just a 20 minute subway ride to downtown. Even with the one-stop subway, Scarborough Town Centre is still over an hour away from downtown. In this discussion, we forget that Scarborough Town Centre is as far away from downtown as Square 1, Mississauga.

I don't see why it absolutely have to be close to downtown. The whole point of STC unlocking its full potential is to make it a viable and desirable destination.

When I lived near York University, I rarely went Downtown, Yorkdale had everything. From my home? Fairview Mall and Bayview Village has everything I need. I go downtown for stuff I don't have in my area. What's wrong with STC becoming our eastern gate as it's by the 401? STC being desirable kind of defeat the purpose of getting on the subway to downtown if STC becomes a viable centre with easy access.

That's the point. I'm hearing a lot of people in places like Yonge & Eg, NYCC and my area at Fairview actually not liking going downtown. It's terrible by car and the subway being overcrowded makes it unattractive. Read a bit about the state of Downtown Montreal to see how much they have lost business and customers to suburban centres because it's a myth that people like driving to go downtown or get on that overcrowded subway unless they have too. Having a centre like STC as an alternative to people leaving the city altogether to go to Mississauga, Pickering or Barrie is a huge advantage and it's good that the city is starting to wake up to it.

Yes STC today is not desirable. But Toronto is getting unaffordable, hence places like Hamilton, and 905 being better options. Turning STC around and make it an more affordable city centre to leave in would help retain a lot of people looking to leave the city and pay taxes elsewhere.

Just need to think a bit farther than downtown, who really can't handle more people and development until the transit comes

 

[Cobra]

The bottom line no decision makers are willing to discuss whether the bottom line makes sense in this instance - and this has locked the city into making a multi-billion, one stop subway extension. It's really not about whether LRT is the right choice anymore, that's yesterday's fight - the question out there now is what can be done to bring the cost back down from the stratosphere for what the line offers.

AoD

I'd cut and cover the whole thing or elevate it. Although I'm very supportive of the premises of the project, I condemn burying lines in the suburbs. Eglinton and McCowan rd have enough space for elevation and that's what should be happening, or cut and cover. Something will have to give here as the cost keeps rising and the city must learn to stop caving to NYMBY who don't won't to put up with elevated subways or cut and cover construction.

Deep expensive stations must be justified and I agree that for STC and a potential Sheppard East extension, the whole thing should be elevated and/or cut and cover,

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Just need to think a bit farther than downtown, who really can't handle more people and development until the transit comes

Downtown can handle more people (look at the modes for people who travel within the core) - it is the transit system can't handle more people traveling from outside to the core. That's the problem.

AoD

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I'd cut and cover the whole thing or elevate it. Although I'm very supportive of the premises of the project, I condemn burying lines in the suburbs. Eglinton and McCowan rd have enough space for elevation and that's what should be happening, or cut and cover. Something will have to give here as the cost keeps rising and the city must learn to stop caving to NYMBY who don't won't to put up with elevated subways or cut and cover construction.

Deep expensive stations must be justified and I agree that for STC and a potential Sheppard East extension, the whole thing should be elevated and/or cut and cover,

I totally do not get why we need a deep tunnel for this line - it's not downtown and you aren't really dealing with complex interchange stations or massive amount of buried utilities (or even nodes of super high density along the way).

AoD

 

[sixrings]

we need deep tunnel because the whole line is designed for votes and god forbid you upset anyone on the way to getting those votes... if youre going to spend billions of dollars you better make sure you retain those supporters.

 

[WislaHD]

I don't see why it absolutely have to be close to downtown. The whole point of STC unlocking its full potential is to make it a viable and desirable destination.

When I lived near York University, I rarely went Downtown, Yorkdale had everything. From my home? Fairview Mall and Bayview Village has everything I need. I go downtown for stuff I don't have in my area. What's wrong with STC becoming our eastern gate as it's by the 401? STC being desirable kind of defeat the purpose of getting on the subway to downtown if STC becomes a viable centre with easy access.

That's the point. I'm hearing a lot of people in places like Yonge & Eg, NYCC and my area at Fairview actually not liking going downtown. It's terrible by car and the subway being overcrowded makes it unattractive. Read a bit about the state of Downtown Montreal to see how much they have lost business and customers to suburban centres because it's a myth that people like driving to go downtown or get on that overcrowded subway unless they have too. Having a centre like STC as an alternative to people leaving the city altogether to go to Mississauga, Pickering or Barrie is a huge advantage and it's good that the city is starting to wake up to it.

Yes STC today is not desirable. But Toronto is getting unaffordable, hence places like Hamilton, and 905 being better options. Turning STC around and make it an more affordable city centre to leave in would help retain a lot of people looking to leave the city and pay taxes elsewhere.

Just need to think a bit farther than downtown, who really can't handle more people and development until the transit comes

People still work downtown though, regardless where they do their shopping and access their amenities.

Distance to work is an important deciding factor for deciding where to live. STC still may as well be Mississauga for someone who works downtown, with or without subway.

The other thing is that STC doesn't exist in a bubble. Yes, we could do something maybe about it (that is a tall order of itself, fixing STC's sprawl), but the issue is incentive. There are locations in the city (even within Scarborough) that are much more appropriate for "sprawl-repair" and revitalization than STC, and they are also more attractive for people to move to, closer to downtown core, and more attractive for investors and developers.

We get hung over STC because it is supposedly the 'capital' of Scarborough, but if we detached emotion from it, it compares fairly poorly to other locations across Toronto that we could focus our investment in.

 

[WislaHD]

I'd cut and cover the whole thing or elevate it. Although I'm very supportive of the premises of the project, I condemn burying lines in the suburbs. Eglinton and McCowan rd have enough space for elevation and that's what should be happening, or cut and cover. Something will have to give here as the cost keeps rising and the city must learn to stop caving to NYMBY who don't won't to put up with elevated subways or cut and cover construction.

Deep expensive stations must be justified and I agree that for STC and a potential Sheppard East extension, the whole thing should be elevated and/or cut and cover,

This we can agree on. Elevate or surface alignment along SRT, something.

Then I would support subway to STC 100%.

 

[Cobra]

we need deep tunnel because the whole line is designed for votes and god forbid you upset anyone on the way to getting those votes... if youre going to spend billions of dollars you better make sure you retain those supporters.

They are getting what they want. The "how" should be left to experts. NYMBY are everywhere, even along Pape Avenue. The city has to stop caving to them